Drone / Rotary Wing Safety Presentation

Flashman · Feb 4, 2016

An interesting PowerPoint presentation given by Thomas Ruder at the European Cockpit Association meeting on the increasing number drone users and their impact on rotary wing safety below 500'. Presented here for your information. Note that all quoted figures are for Germany.

licensed pilot · Feb 4, 2016

Flashman said:
An interesting PowerPoint presentation given by Thomas Ruder at the European Cockpit Association meeting on the increasing number drone users and their impact on rotary wing safety below 500'. Presented here for your information. Note that all quoted figures are for Germany.

Thank you. Good stuff. Unfortunately the reckless morons who need to watch this won't.

PrimeMotivator · Feb 8, 2016

The only answer is to ban all drones or make them as expensive at helicopters to operate and keep helicopter pilots in work doing jobs better suited to drones. Or how about accept that drones are here to stay and not fly about at full speed at low altitude where drones and birds are found. As soon as I see a low flying aircraft in the air I get my Inspire as low as possible and stay put until I know what's going on. It's not my full responsibility to be on a constant look out for low fly helicopters traveling at full speed. How is anyone meant to do anything about that. If some hotshot heli pilot wants to show off flying low for no reason then they are far more likely to hit a bird than a drone as was the likely cause of the two strikes that were mentioned in the presentation. Maybe they should Google helicopter crashes instead on drone crashes. Sorry for the rant but to my eye its just jobs protection on their part as they can see where this is ultimately all leading to.

licensed pilot · Feb 8, 2016

"It's not my full responsibility to be on a constant look out for low fly helicopters traveling at full speed."
Actually, it is. Under FAA rules manned aircraft have right of way over UAVs.

Flashman · Feb 8, 2016

I don't think the idea behind the presentation was job protection, just to highlight the increased number of drones now operating in the low level environment. Yes I agree with you that there is more chance of a helicopter hitting a bird than a drone at those levels. For those of us in the UK, it is unlikely that you will see many civilian helicopters, including the police operating below 500' unless they're taking off or landing. The only helicopters operating low level (<500') are the military and even their operations are now limited.
I believe the current certification process in the UK for SUA/UAV operators addresses the issues raised in the presentation and should not be cause for concern. However, you will also get the odd clown out there looking to fly outside of the limitations.

PrimeMotivator · Feb 8, 2016

I agree that it is my responsibility to be on the lookout for aircraft and to avoid to the best of my ability. I disagree that helicopter pilots or regular pilots flying below 500ft at high speed should have an expectation of right of way when the birds and the drones in the air have no time to react to getting out of the way. Speed needs to be adjusted for altitude. The lower you fly the slower you go is a fairly good rule for all aircraft be they drones or jets. This is common sense and unless you are military then what possible reason could there be for going fast and low in the areas we would normally be flying in?

licensed pilot · Feb 8, 2016

PrimeMotivator said:
I agree that it is my responsibility to be on the lookout for aircraft and to avoid to the best of my ability. I disagree that helicopter pilots or regular pilots flying below 500ft at high speed should have an expectation of right of way when the birds and the drones in the air have no time to react to getting out of the way. Speed needs to be adjusted for altitude. The lower you fly the slower you go is a fairly good rule for all aircraft be they drones or jets. This is common sense and unless you are military then what possible reason could there be for going fast and low in the areas we would normally be flying in?

I agree there are reckless pilots and reckless UAV operators. And the law says manned aircraft have the "expectation of right of way." I watch and listen for low flying aircraft and land when any is spotted. I don't want someone's death on my conscience.

Flashman · Feb 9, 2016

I think the term "expectation of right of way" is being taken out of context. It is my belief that this Rule of the Air only applies to manned aircraft (and perhaps remotely piloted aircraft >150kgs). It is certainly not applicable to SUA/UAVs in the UK. For example if I was flying a helicopter on a converging course with a fixed wing aircraft at a similar level, I would have the expectation of right of way if this other aircraft was to my left. If I had the converging aircraft to my right then I would be expected to give way.
SUA/UAVs would not be afforded or expected to observe this rule.

If however, I was flying along in this same helicopter and observed an SUA/UAV on a converging course then I would take the appropriate avoiding action but I certainly would not expect any right of way to be afforded to me.

Right-of-way rules are described in ICAO Annex 2: Rules of the Air

licensed pilot · Feb 9, 2016

In the US All manned aircraft have priority over ALL Unmanned aircraft and must yield right of way, for obvious reasons.

Flashman · Feb 9, 2016

Terminology. Yes I agree all unmanned aircraft must give way to manned aircraft, no matter where you operate.

PrimeMotivator · Feb 9, 2016

And like a sailboat in the sea which has right of way over the super tanker, its super important to be on the lookout when you're in the shipping lanes which I would cal the equivalent of low altitude flight. Just because you have right of way don't expect to not need to be aware of what's going on outside your window. In an ideal world the UAVs will be able to be tracked by manned aircraft and ATC through some sort of beacon which doesn't require the amount of power that a full on transponder does.

brad90631 · Feb 9, 2016

Last weekend I was flying in a local park up about 320 feet. when out of no where a la sheriff copter appears lower than me. This park backs up to some hills and a lot of unpopulated land. it looked like he was just flying low. he went up over hills turned towards me hovered for a few turned back then dropped the nose and dropped down the other side of the hill well below 400 feet. no other choppers no other police nothing in the paper or news. so I question what he was doing so low. The second I heard him I started dropping but he was on top of me in just a few seconds. I told my wife that I could see the news report now. Man fly's drone to close LA Sheriff. i hung out at the park for a while to see if cops show up. but guess to turn me in he had to explain why he was so low. I just wish I could have gotten video. I was to worried about getting down then shooting video. I will say it really freaked me out.

licensed pilot · Feb 9, 2016

Glad you had no trouble from the cops. Irresponsible pilots can be found in law enforcement and the military, just as much as in the civilian world. Another reason to be extra careful and have an observer, if you can.

RaptorMan · Feb 10, 2016

As I've been saying for a while now the major threat isn't fixed winged AC but rotorcraft. They are supposed to fly above 500 feet, but they also takeoff and land at location other than airports. Additionally, the traffic copters and police and rescue copters do fly lower than 500 feet and not just on takeoff and landing.

Part of the problem we've been having is that police aviation units want to fly low where ever they want and they don't like drones being in the same airspace so they've been particularly aggressive at going after drone pilots even when the drone pilots are doing nothing wrong. The police aviation units would just love to have drones banned outright so they don't have to worry about it.

So, if you are flying a drone in an area that may see rotorcraft you had better be on your toes and probably avoid going above 200 feet and perhaps less. It won't matter if you are legally permitted to fly at 400 feet if a rescue or police helicopter hit your drone and crashes and the crew is killed you will be vilified and likely subject to arrest and prosecution. If you have the money to hire a good lawyer you'll probably win, but if you don't have DEEP pockets you will almost certainly lose.

Brian

PrimeMotivator · Feb 10, 2016

Perhaps we should all investing in one of these when they release them.

Home

licensed pilot · Feb 10, 2016

RaptorMan said:
As I've been saying for a while now the major threat isn't fixed winged AC but rotorcraft. They are supposed to fly above 500 feet, but they also takeoff and land at location other than airports. Additionally, the traffic copters and police and rescue copters do fly lower than 500 feet and not just on takeoff and landing.

Part of the problem we've been having is that police aviation units want to fly low where ever they want and they don't like drones being in the same airspace so they've been particularly aggressive at going after drone pilots even when the drone pilots are doing nothing wrong. The police aviation units would just love to have drones banned outright so they don't have to worry about it.

So, if you are flying a drone in an area that may see rotorcraft you had better be on your toes and probably avoid going above 200 feet and perhaps less. It won't matter if you are legally permitted to fly at 400 feet if a rescue or police helicopter hit your drone and crashes and the crew is killed you will be vilified and likely subject to arrest and prosecution. If you have the money to hire a good lawyer you'll probably win, but if you don't have DEEP pockets you will almost certainly lose.

Brian

"the major threat isn't fixed winged AC but rotorcraft" I disagree. The major threat to aviation today are irresponsible UAV operators w/o any aeronautical knowledge who endanger everything on the air. That's why the FAA requires pilot licenses for commercial operations until they get a UAS certificate process in place, which I agree with. Too many morons in the air. I reached out to the medical helicopter chief pilot in my city's hospital who was absolutely cooperative with radio frequency information (I carry an aviation handheld radio when I fly), take off and approach patterns, his personal cell number so I could notify him if I fly a job anywhere near the hospital and a 100% commitment to maintain safety. I am a retired cop and personally know the sheriff's chopper pilot in my county and do not agree with your characterization that "The police aviation units would just love to have drones banned outright so they don't have to worry about it." The want the same thing most of us want, safety in air operations w/o untrained yahoos endangering everyone. Look at the reckless behavior exhibited by the clowns that post videos here clearly flying in the national airspace and at night.

Manned aircraft will always have priority over UAV for reasons that should be obvious.

PrimeMotivator · Feb 10, 2016

I agree with pretty much every thing you say. The "Yahoo's" out there need to be educated rather than aillianated. The aviation community should be reaching out to UAV operators in their area informing them about their use of the local airspace and how they can use it together rather than breed a them against us mentality. No one wants anyone to get hurt and following the rules will work most of the time but some folks just need a bit of help understanding all the dangers flying UAVs can introduce. If they wait until the FAA brings in mandatory courses and licenses for all users of UAVs they will be waiting a long time and accidents will happen.

licensed pilot · Feb 10, 2016

PrimeMotivator said:
I agree with pretty much every thing you say. The "Yahoo's" out there need to be educated rather than aillianated. The aviation community should be reaching out to UAV operators in their area informing them about their use of the local airspace and how they can use it together rather than breed a them against us mentality. No one wants anyone to get hurt and following the rules will work most of the time but some folks just need a bit of help understanding all the dangers flying UAVs can introduce. If they wait until the FAA brings in mandatory courses and licenses for all users of UAVs they will be waiting a long time and accidents will happen.

Agree. The FAA has done a major effort to reach out and educate. Some just don't care (evident by the number of videos displaying illegal/reckless behavior posted here and elsewhere; is not "some", it's many) The aviation community has been around since 1903

, the burden is on the newcomers to educate themselves.

Some of the attitudes one sees displayed in forums reminds me of the new member that just joins the country club today, and tomorrow demands the rules be changed! Ain't gonna happen. For those who want to fly commercially w/o a 333 and post on FB or in forums, my sincere wishes is please continue doing so, makes it easier for responsible operators to report you to the feds. You are 100% correct, it cannot be left to the FAA, self-policing will be more effective.

RaptorMan · Feb 10, 2016

licensed pilot said:
"the major threat isn't fixed winged AC but rotorcraft" I disagree. The major threat to aviation today are irresponsible UAV operators w/o any aeronautical knowledge who endanger everything on the air. That's why the FAA requires pilot licenses for commercial operations until they get a UAS certificate process in place, which I agree with. Too many morons in the air. I reached out to the medical helicopter chief pilot in my city's hospital who was absolutely cooperative with radio frequency information (I carry an aviation handheld radio when I fly), take off and approach patterns, his personal cell number so I could notify him if I fly a job anywhere near the hospital and a 100% commitment to maintain safety. I am a retired cop and personally know the sheriff's chopper pilot in my county and do not agree with your characterization that "The police aviation units would just love to have drones banned outright so they don't have to worry about it." The want the same thing most of us want, safety in air operations w/o untrained yahoos endangering everyone. Look at the reckless behavior exhibited by the clowns that post videos here clearly flying in the national airspace and at night.

Manned aircraft will always have priority over UAV for reasons that should be obvious.

You misunderstood what I was saying ...

The greatest threat to aviation with respect to drones is the risk that drone operators will cause a helicopter to crash. I may not have been as clear as I wished, but although drone operation poses some threat to fixed wing aircraft the major risk is to helicopters.

We've had a few chuckleheads on this very board that seem to believe our drones are incapable of hitting planes and helicopters -- they are wrong, and the very fact that some would believe this and compound the problem by declaring this nonsense to others.

Brian