HD, 4K and ND filters, Contradictory ?

[Allan Tuxen]

Sorry for asking, but I am relative new to video, and complete newborn to filmproductions.

From a technical point of view, can I easely understand why ND filteres is used because a big apertur is wanted in a nearly every shoots. (Maby except some landscape types of images, But even here small sensors camera most not have to small aperture because of diffraction. So here a ND filter give a lot off sence if you want to have low shutter speed and use a tripod!

But even when flying in tripod mode and we have a nice working gimbel will there be some movements when flyving. And lets assume that you want a high resolution eg. 1080P or even 4K.

I think to recall that on a standard EFP camera is it impossibly to shoot 4K with an aperture smaller than f1/10. So if we keep the aperture bigger then diffraction is not a problem for 4K. But I vill asume movment would be a big problem.

If we shoot a video sekvense where the scene is around 100meter wide, and we only need HD resolution. Then the 100 meter is spread out on 1920 pixel. So around 5 cm pr. Pixel in a 100meter wide sceen. So if the drone’s angel is moving what corresponds to 5cm out of 100meter within 1 frame, then you loose resolution to lower than HD. (with 48 frame/s will it also mean that you in HD are restricted to fly under 8km/t, and 4 km/t in 4K).

So for me does it seems a little contradictory to have low shutter speed and high resolution when the camera moves. So, if we disregard those shoots where rolling shutter is a problem, is it completely unthinkable to shoot with high shutter speed and no ND to keep hi resolution and make the “movie look” in post ?

Regards Allan

 

[The Editor]

Sorry for asking, but I am relative new to video, and complete newborn to filmproductions.

From a technical point of view, can I easely understand why ND filteres is used because a big apertur is wanted in a nearly every shoots. (Maby except some landscape types of images, But even here small sensors camera most not have to small aperture because of diffraction. So here a ND filter give a lot off sence if you want to have low shutter speed and use a tripod!

But even when flying in tripod mode and we have a nice working gimbel will there be some movements when flyving. And lets assume that you want a high resolution eg. 1080P or even 4K.

I think to recall that on a standard EFP camera is it impossibly to shoot 4K with an aperture smaller than f1/10. So if we keep the aperture bigger then diffraction is not a problem for 4K. But I vill asume movment would be a big problem.

If we shoot a video sekvense where the scene is around 100meter wide, and we only need HD resolution. Then the 100 meter is spread out on 1920 pixel. So around 5 cm pr. Pixel in a 100meter wide sceen. So if the drone’s angel is moving what corresponds to 5cm out of 100meter within 1 frame, then you loose resolution to lower than HD. (with 48 frame/s will it also mean that you in HD are restricted to fly under 8km/t, and 4 km/t in 4K).

So for me does it seems a little contradictory to have low shutter speed and high resolution when the camera moves. So, if we disregard those shoots where rolling shutter is a problem, it's completely unthinkable to shoot with high shutter speed and no ND to keep hi resolution and make the “movie look” in post ?

Regards Allan

It isn't about resolution, the slower shutter speed is preferred to induce some element of motion blur. Otherwise a faster shutter gives a stuttering effect especially when the camera is moving/panning due to the temporal motion.

 

[Allan Tuxen]

It isn't about resolution, the slower shutter speed is preferred to induce some element of motion blur. Otherwise a faster shutter gives a stuttering effect especially when the camera is moving/panning due to the temporal motion.

Thanks for the quick reply. However should it be interpreted that 4K does not make sense if the drone are in motion ?

My original question was poorly translated. It should have been.
Would it be possible to get the same look (naturally mortion blur) in editing, if the recording are made with high shutter speed. So that a high resolution could be preserved when the Drone or element in the frame is in very, very slow motion.

 

[AMGPilot]

Thanks for the quick reply. However should it be interpreted that 4K does not make sense if the drone are in motion ?

My original question was poorly translated. It should have been.
Would it be possible to get the same look (naturally mortion blur) in editing, if the recording are made with high shutter speed. So that a high resolution could be preserved when the Drone or element in the frame is in very, very slow motion.

No. Motion blur is a function of exposure time (shutter speed)

 

[Steve@AerialImagesPro]

Thanks for the quick reply. However should it be interpreted that 4K does not make sense if the drone are in motion ?

My original question was poorly translated. It should have been.
Would it be possible to get the same look (naturally mortion blur) in editing, if the recording are made with high shutter speed. So that a high resolution could be preserved when the Drone or element in the frame is in very, very slow motion.

I don't understand your question regarding 4k. I think you're getting resolution mixed up with shutter speed.

I haven't tried this yet, but you MAY be able to use Motion Blur effect in post if you used a high shutter speed in your shoot. HOWEVER, the issue with high shutter speed in video is, as The Editor said, it may introduce flicker unless you use a shutter speed that is evenly divisible by your frame rate (ie 30fps and using 1/240 shutter)... the other issue is that in video, the faster the shutter speed, the more likely you will get Jello effect in the video based on the amount of movement.

I always use a 16nd filter on sunny days and it works great, but it is a pain in the *** to have to land, take the ND filter off and put a clear filter on to take pictures. It's a pain, but I think it has to be done.

 

[shaun666]

I am a trained cinematographer & a self trained stills photographer I've been shooting from helicopters since 1982 until UAV's came to be, & personally for me I have a basic formula that ALWAYS produces the best imagery, shutter speed should be double your frame rate. you can if unable to ad more ND double your shutter speed again but only if its the only way to get the shot.
So I'm in Australia: Frame rate 25fps Shutter speed 50th OR 100th in a pinch adjusting your aperture for correct exposure.
Just a note most people over expose aerial shots as the light bounce is so different from any altitude than it is looking along the plane at ground level where most photographers work most of the time, this is what i have found any way... late reply I know... here is a link to stills & video I have taken using this formula were possible ie, NOT GoPro in the earlier days of UAV work.
The Missing Link Productions

 

[Donnie Frank]

With all due respect, sounds like you know very little about photography, videography, cinematography, your camera, how it works, lighting, composition, etc. I would seriously bone up on all things video/photo/digital data, etc. I would NOT show up on set without a full understanding of your camera, lighting, filters, composition, vernacular, photographic options, compression algorithms, digital data, Macbooks vs. Windows, partition tables, files systems and on and on and on. There's a shitload to know, and it's all out there on the Internet in YouTube videos...mostly free. Understanding the mechanics of your camera and photography is the first place I would start. There's WAY more to learn than can be taught in a forum.

Let me put it this way, if you're confused by ANYTHING a Director of Photography might ask of you, and you subsequently mess up the footage, you won't be asked to come back. As a bonus, they'll treat you like an *******. I saw this happen to another aerial company on set that I was just assisting for. It was NOT pretty.

If you're on 1st unit, there will more-than-likely be a DIT to take your data. You better have formats worked out with production before shooting. If on second unit, YOU will handle the data. And in that case you had BETTER have good, fast, reliable means of moving the data wherever they need it.

This is why my company bills $2500 for half day (4 hours) and $4500 full day (at hours) portal to portal. It's not that we have $25K cameras and birds. It's that we have a full understanding of film, photography, videography, cinematography, digital data, etc., and can always "get the shot" with NO mistakes. Plus we're fully FAA compliant, which is a shitload of paper work for film. Our reputation is rock solid.

 

[Donnie Frank]

I am a trained cinematographer & a self trained stills photographer I've been shooting from helicopters since 1982 until UAV's came to be, & personally for me I have a basic formula that ALWAYS produces the best imagery, shutter speed should be double your frame rate. you can if unable to ad more ND double your shutter speed again but only if its the only way to get the shot.
So I'm in Australia: Frame rate 25fps Shutter speed 50th OR 100th in a pinch adjusting your aperture for correct exposure.
Just a note most people over expose aerial shots as the light bounce is so different from any altitude than it is looking along the plane at ground level where most photographers work most of the time, this is what i have found any way... late reply I know... here is a link to stills & video I have taken using this formula were possible ie, NOT GoPro in the earlier days of UAV work.
The Missing Link Productions

Yep...the 180° shutter rule is just one of many that one should fully understand before stepping on any film set. I go even farther to understand the history of that rule, and why and how it came into play from back in the old film days.

 

[shaun666]

With all due respect, sounds like you know very little about photography, videography, cinematography, your camera, how it works, lighting, composition, etc. I would seriously bone up on all things video/photo/digital data, etc. I would NOT show up on set without a full understanding of your camera, lighting, filters, composition, vernacular, photographic options, compression algorithms, digital data, Macbooks vs. Windows, partition tables, files systems and on and on and on. There's a shitload to know, and it's all out there on the Internet in YouTube videos...mostly free. Understanding the mechanics of your camera and photography is the first place I would start. There's WAY more to learn than can be taught in a forum.

Let me put it this way, if you're confused by ANYTHING a Director of Photography might ask of you, and you subsequently mess up the footage, you won't be asked to come back. As a bonus, they'll treat you like an *******. I saw this happen to another aerial company on set that I was just assisting for. It was NOT pretty.

If you're on 1st unit, there will more-than-likely be a DIT to take your data. You better have formats worked out with production before shooting. If on second unit, YOU will handle the data. And in that case you had BETTER have good, fast, reliable means of moving the data wherever they need it.

This is why my company bills $2500 for half day (4 hours) and $4500 full day (at hours) portal to portal. It's not that we have $25K cameras and birds. It's that we have a full understanding of film, photography, videography, cinematography, digital data, etc., and can always "get the shot" with NO mistakes. Plus we're fully FAA compliant, which is a shitload of paper work for film. Our reputation is rock solid.

about Allen agreed. about full crew productions agreed, but I doubt he will be involved in anything like that, gee he only asked about one hing he 180° shutter rule so lets play nice & help, we all started somewhere.

 

[Donnie Frank]

about Allen agreed. about full crew productions agreed, but I doubt he will be involved in anything like that, gee he only asked about one hing he 180° shutter rule so lets play nice & help, we all started somewhere.

I was candid, but I did start with "with all due respect" to insure the reader that I was truly trying to educate and not berate. Hopefully, he got that message. That said....

I only WISH someone had told me these things before my first movie shoot. It was my profound luck that videography, photography have been a long-time hobby of mine, and that my first shoot was second unit. Being a professional computer repair technician gave me a full understanding of the digital media, which was a **** good thing to know. Having a super fast i7 laptop with me was also a godsend, as the director's Macbook pro couldn't handle the 4K footage. We eeked through the first day, but you can bet I boned up on all things video for the second day. A year later, I have a full understanding of the entire process.

 

[shaun666]

Your right, some people have NO idea of what is actually involved in taking a "good shot" the years of training is so many different fields just to supply broadcast quality aerial images, personally I am glad of the people who think they can as this just makes the professional operators look so much better. It reminds me of when I was an editor a a TV station and desktop editing came to PC's everyone wash setting up there own production facility just to make us look better
I hope your going well & I'm always happy to learn from people that can teach me. as you mentioned it's not the expensive UAVs that supply the best images its the operator. Do you have a show reel I could look at, always enjoy looking at paid work as anyone can take amazing aerial vision but to be able to supply amazing vision every time is what a Pro can do.

 

[Donnie Frank]

Your right, some people have NO idea of what is actually involved in taking a "good shot" the years of training is so many different fields just to supply broadcast quality aerial images, personally I am glad of the people who think they can as this just makes the professional operators look so much better. It reminds me of when I was an editor a a TV station and desktop editing came to PC's everyone wash setting up there own production facility just to make us look better
I hope your going well & I'm always happy to learn from people that can teach me. as you mentioned it's not the expensive UAVs that supply the best images its the operator. Do you have a show reel I could look at, always enjoy looking at paid work as anyone can take amazing aerial vision but to be able to supply amazing vision every time is what a Pro can do.

Funny....I was just rumaging through dozens of hours or aerial footage thinking I need to make a show reel. So, to answer your question, no, I don't have one at the moment. I've seen the different styles and I think I'm going to go way different and do like 1-2 minutes with quite a bit of jump editing. Maybe 10-15 frames per shot with the occasional 30-40 frame shot. I have SO much raw footage to go through. It's on my list.

Funny....shooting last month...second unit. Not sure what production costs were, but I'd guess at least $3K-$4K per hour. We're shooting aerial of this bus for a series "Graves," and a drop of water gets on the lens. I look at the DP, point to the monitor (I wear goggles), look at him and ask, "Deal breaker?" He says, "Yep. CUT!!" Bus plus escort vehicles reset, bring the drone back (like 2,000' out), clear the lens then suggest flying a little higher as to keep the camera pointing a little more downward.

My point is that a single drop of rain cost production a couple thousand dollars. That's how fragile that environment is. ANYTHING the drone pilot or camera operator do wrong can cost thousands.

D

 

[shaun666]

Yes we have had a stressed director pull a weapon on vision switcher long in the past due to cutting to the wrong live source camera, re your demo I am in a similar boat so I just jump cut 2sec shots together to a piece of music same with some stills its on my web site link... self promotion take up valuable earning time.

 

[Donnie Frank]

Yes we have had a stressed director pull a weapon on vision switcher long in the past due to cutting to the wrong live source camera, re your demo I am in a similar boat so I just jump cut 2sec shots together to a piece of music same with some stills its on my web site link... self promotion take up valuable earning time.

A weapon, eh? I haven't seen that. Yet. I HAVE seen the DP get into it with the props guy. This was for Longmire first unit, so the props guy was giving guns and "cowboy stuff" to the actors. Our bird was in the air, so the DP was anxious to start shooting at the props guy kept saying, "Hold on." They exchanged a few F-bombs but no weapons or fists of fury. As soon as he was done, he turned back to me and was nice as pie. It was windy as hell that day. We were right on the edge of calling it, but managed to get the shots.