UK Questionable Job

[Blacksails]

I've been asked to take photos of a property boundary line to settle a dispute between neighbours.

They want me to fly from their back garden and take one or two birds eye views so that they may compare this to the deeds and use it as evidence in order to get a back garden fence moved.

I am not afforded 30m at take off from the neighbouring property, and have been informed that she will absolutely not give permission. The neighbour on the opposing side however, will give me permission and that gives me the 30m I need, but then I will still have to fly close to the property line to get a decent image of what they want.

Also, even if the flight could be made without question, what is the legal standing on taking photos of a private property for this purpose without the owners permission?

Basically, what would you guys do?? I'm pretty sure I'll just be turning this one down. But it's an interesting one.

 

[The Editor]

I've been asked to take photos of a property boundary line to settle a dispute between neighbours.

They want me to fly from their back garden and take one or two birds eye views so that they may compare this to the deeds and use it as evidence in order to get a back garden fence moved.

I am not afforded 30m at take off from the neighbouring property, and have been informed that she will absolutely not give permission. The neighbour on the opposing side however, will give me permission and that gives me the 30m I need, but then I will still have to fly close to the property line to get a decent image of what they want.

Also, even if the flight could be made without question, what is the legal standing on taking photos of a private property for this purpose without the owners permission?

Basically, what would you guys do?? I'm pretty sure I'll just be turning this one down. But it's an interesting one.

Hmmmm...... Interesting one.
Don't forget that you can utilize 'bubble theory' under CAP393 94/95 sooooooo......
As long as you maintain sufficient height (say 50m) you could in fact fly within 1 meter of the boundary line/fence and still observe legal stand off distances.
The data acquisition side of things is a whole different matter and if the neighbor is going to be difficult they will probably try and find any excuse.
My suggestions.

• Maintain your height as above and you can get near the boundary
• Sign a disclaimer with the client explaining that you will destroy all images captured after a set period of days/weeks
• Do the job when the 'nasty neighbor is out!

 

[Blacksails]

Hmmmm...... Interesting one.
Don't forget that you can utilize 'bubble theory' under CAP393 94/95 sooooooo......
As long as you maintain sufficient height (say 50m) you could in fact fly within 1 meter of the boundary line/fence and still observe legal stand off distances.
The data acquisition side of things is a whole different matter and if the neighbor is going to be difficult they will probably try and find any excuse.
My suggestions.

• Maintain your height as above and you can get near the boundary
• Sign a disclaimer with the client explaining that you will destroy all images captured after a set period of days/weeks
• Do the job when the 'nasty neighbor is out!

Thanks Editor,

My main worry I guess was the data acquisition, as inevitably she will see the photo eventually. If she questions how it was obtained and states that she didn't give permission I just didn't want any comeback on me. I'm not really sure on taking photos of people's back gardens without their permission.

After checking a second time, it's going to be simply impossible to get 30m from her property for take off. I'm not sure how fences etc come into play for this, but I would certainly be within 50m of her house whilst climbing out.

I called a friend who is an officer. He told me that if she went to the police they would most likely tell her it was a civil matter and not get involved.

Thanks again!

 

[huppe]

Do the job when the 'nasty neighbor is out

And that is why we need this kind advice.Like it!!!
This kind of job looks a regular flight around my area.
But my first rule is always do I feel comfortable doing this job?If not I say thank you for this,but not my thing.

 

[Blacksails]

And that is why we need this kind advice.Like it!!!
This kind of job looks a regular flight around my area.
But my first rule is always o I feel comfortable doing this job?If not I say thank you for this,but not my thing.

Yep, I've turned it down. I didn't feel 100% on it and it just wasn't worth a risk for the return I'd get.

 

[Scoobywrx05]

I'd tell the client if they want to settle the problem once and for all to have their land surveyed by a state certified surveying company. That will be the only way to settle said dispute between land owners. Flying up and taking pictures isn't going to do anything except make the neighbor mad at ya. Unless you yourself are a certified land surveyor. Something I'd stay away from cause it won't be worth the headache.

 

[huppe]

Good follow your instinct I always say.Good luck with other jobs.

 

[bluelight.support]

I've been asked to take photos of a property boundary line to settle a dispute between neighbours.

I know you have turned it down - but as a further thought, if your using imagery to try and resolve disputes like borders, you then run into the issues of ensuring that data is geo-accurate and you would need survey grade accuracy of 1cm or so otherwise I think you would find yourself in trouble using as evidence in court.

 

[Blacksails]

I know you have turned it down - but as a further thought, if your using imagery to try and resolve disputes like borders, you then run into the issues of ensuring that data is geo-accurate and you would need survey grade accuracy of 1cm or so otherwise I think you would find yourself in trouble using as evidence in court.

Very good point.

Yeah, I turned it down. I don't offer surveying, mapping or anything of the sort so this didn't occur to me until mentioned. It initially sounded like a very simple photography job.

Thanks for all of the responses guys.

 

[AeroMirage]

I wouldn't touch a job like that at any price.
Be glad you turned it down.

 

[Cyclops]

I was interested to read this thread. I think you made the right decision in turning this job down.

What your potential client really needed was a qualified surveyor to take very accurate readings on the ground.

Last year I was asked to take a series of landscape images of an area of land that had a planning application submitted for a solar farm. I was employed by a group of local residents that were opposed to this scheme. I took the job on and took of from 4 or 5 locations owned by the group and took a series of GV's of the location. I felt comfortable that I was maintaining correct distances and taking off in a safe manner and didn't fly directly over the land in question. And In all fairness I could have been equally employed by the company hoping to build the solar farm.

 

[enzyox]

I had a situation with a basic Real Estate shoot involving an empty lot in a messy divorce settlement with an angry ex who lived nearby who aggressively refused my team access even though he did not own the property. The agent then asked for it to shot from a distance down the road in an attempt to avoid the person. I still refused the job since the fee for the job was not worth putting my team at risk and the person may have even attempted to down my aircraft.

I've turned down a few jobs due to safety concerns, most of the time however I am able to educate the client and come up with a solution where I can get the shots without compromising safety or FAA regulations.

 

[Steve@AerialImagesPro]

There are those on here that would say you are not allowed to take pictures of private property (in the US) using a drone. And, the FAA does say that you 'shouldn't', but it is a guideline, not a law.

There are some local rules/laws around taking pictures of private property, but I doubt they would hold up in a court case. For the most part, you can legally stand on the street and take pictures of someone's house or property. You can also take pictures of private property from airplanes and helicopters.. You can take pictures of private property from Satellites. So why would it/should it be illegal taking pictures from a drone (assuming you're not close in to a person, or targeting the inside of a home, in which case regular privacy laws are in place)? I don't see how that would stand up in court.

Imagine if you COULD sue someone over that. Google would be sued out of existence since just about every address known to man has had a picture of it taken from the ground and from the air and posted on the internet and made publicly available.

 

[The Editor]

There are those on here that would say you are not allowed to take pictures of private property (in the US) using a drone. And, the FAA does say that you 'shouldn't', but it is a guideline, not a law.

There are some local rules/laws around taking pictures of private property, but I doubt they would hold up in a court case. For the most part, you can legally stand on the street and take pictures of someone's house or property. You can also take pictures of private property from airplanes and helicopters.. You can take pictures of private property from Satellites. So why would it/should it be illegal taking pictures from a drone (assuming you're not close in to a person, or targeting the inside of a home, in which case regular privacy laws are in place)? I don't see how that would stand up in court.

Imagine if you COULD sue someone over that. Google would be sued out of existence since just about every address known to man has had a picture of it taken from the ground and from the air and posted on the internet and made publicly available.

This is a UK specific thread - the OP asked about operational details under a PFCO and within CAP 393 94/94 so anything US doesn't apply I'm afraid.
In the UK, there are different rules and they are (unlike the US) enshrined in law.
Captured images/data acquisition also falls under certain legal restraints under the Data acquisitions act.
Can we keep this UK pertinent please.

Many thanks.

 

[Donnie Frank]

I've been asked to take photos of a property boundary line to settle a dispute between neighbours.

They want me to fly from their back garden and take one or two birds eye views so that they may compare this to the deeds and use it as evidence in order to get a back garden fence moved.

I am not afforded 30m at take off from the neighbouring property, and have been informed that she will absolutely not give permission. The neighbour on the opposing side however, will give me permission and that gives me the 30m I need, but then I will still have to fly close to the property line to get a decent image of what they want.

Also, even if the flight could be made without question, what is the legal standing on taking photos of a private property for this purpose without the owners permission?

Basically, what would you guys do?? I'm pretty sure I'll just be turning this one down. But it's an interesting one.

Ever heard of a news helicopter being sued for flying over someone's property and/or for filming their property in a news story? Neither have I. Why? Because the air above their property is an easement. Helicopters, planes (and in N.M., Hot Air Balloons) are allowed to fly over people's property - even to the point of almost scraping their roofs. Dogs go crazy. Privacy is invaded. Nobody is sued.

Ever seen an electric company get sued because they had to use someone's yard to access a utility pole? Neither have I.

I think the one thing I hate about this business is the fact that people apply a completely different set of rules to drones as they do to full scale aviation. Unfortunately for them, because we are forced to register our drones with the FAA, we are covered under the same blanket as full scale aviation.

I don't have time to cite sources right now, but it's pretty easy to look up.

Good luck!

 

[The Editor]

Ever heard of a news helicopter being sued for flying over someone's property and/or for filming their property in a news story? Neither have I. Why? Because the air above their property is an easement. Helicopters, planes (and in N.M., Hot Air Balloons) are allowed to fly over people's property - even to the point of almost scraping their roofs. Dogs go crazy. Privacy is invaded. Nobody is sued.

Ever seen an electric company get sued because they had to use someone's yard to access a utility pole? Neither have I.

I think the one thing I hate about this business is the fact that people apply a completely different set of rules to drones as they do to full scale aviation. Unfortunately for them, because we are forced to register our drones with the FAA, we are covered under the same blanket as full scale aviation.

I don't have time to cite sources right now, but it's pretty easy to look up.

Good luck!

Refer to my post above #14
UK specific thread (which is why we include prefix's in the certified pilots section)
Different laws apply in different locations.

Thank You

 

[Blacksails]

As Editor said, this is UK and there are different rules. I understand the that google maps etc all have satellite images, you can photo from an aircraft etc.

My main worry with this was:
A) I was fully aware that the property owner would not give me permission to fly, and I needed that permission otherwise I could not maintain 30m at take off/landing required here in the UK.

B) that they 100% would object to me taking photos of their property due to the nature of what they were going to be used for. A dispute that already had solicitors involved.

I know that they can't really control people taking aerial images with their property included in it, but it could have become a major headache for me if they had done any digging, and complained about the images. It may then come to light that I didn't have their permission, and therefore was flying in a congested area without the permissions in place to maintain the safe distances required by my PfCO. Just not worth it.

 

[Mad_angler1]

DPA comes into affect as well but personally I would have

Find take off location with all rules satisfied as much as possible, do it when they are out too just to keep the hassle factor down and provide images that have here property obscured by blurring and nothing specifically identifiable then delete all copy's and make written records to reflect as such.

Someone could fly over with plane and take the same images, all you have to satisfy is that you have flown with in with UK drone rules and you have not broken the DPA ect.

Yes it's messy and yes they won't like it but it's tough, as long as you satisfy the navigation order rules and don't brake the DPA ect then your good.

But as your turned it down then it don't really matter, these kind of things will become more common as it's now another tool in the box to use in these situations.

 

[Donnie Frank]

Refer to my post above #14
UK specific thread (which is why we include prefix's in the certified pilots section)
Different laws apply in different locations.

Thank You

Touché. I forget this forum is based out of the U.K.

 

[The Editor]

Touché. I forget this forum is based out of the U.K.

No it isn't - it's actually US based.
It's just that this particular section has a prefix feature which makes it better suited to getting pertinent results applicable to an operator's location and aviation authorities rules.
The other areas of the community are more 'loosly' moderated but I think in the certified pilots area it is important to get factual, accurate and pertinent information across since the basis of undertaking professional work could depend on advice given.