TB48 (Inspire) v TB48S (Matrice)

[MCHL]

Hi all. Hope you can help here. I’ve looked through many a post regarding batteries, but still haven’t found one that confirms compatibility.

I need to know if the Matrice 600’s TB48S can be used in the I1 - anyone tried it? Given same power, same everything apart from the lid?

If it's not, does that just mean the circuitboard needs to be changed over as well? (I assume it fits in the lid of the I1?)

Really appreciate some advice, especially if you’ve given it a go, before I go spend a few hundred on one, only to kill it!

 

[Donnie Frank]

Hi all. Hope you can help here. I’ve looked through many a post regarding batteries, but still haven’t found one that confirms compatibility.

Probably because nobody has been brave enough to try it. This is where you become a renaissance man. I've spent thousands of dollars being "the first to try something." The secret is to weigh the risks against the rewards. As an electrician, I've learned that electrons aren't bias. So power-wise, there are no issues. Your 2 main power connections are identical between the I1 and M600. My concern is regarding the "under the hood" electronics. Do the smaller data pins line up? I don't have either battery in front of me, but I'm going to guess no. If the pins DO line up, the next step would be to find out what each pin does. This is where DJI support falls short. So we have to rely on logic and our multimeter.

The Chinese are the masters of cutting costs. So they are motivated to use the same exact battery in the M600 as they used in the I1 - as opposed to completely redesigning the electronics. So chances are strong that if the data pins line up, they serve the same purpose.

If this were me (with the batteries removed), I would power them up and meter each pin for voltage and resistance. For this you would have to find which one of the main pins is the negative. A simple polarity test will tell you this. If all the pins on both batteries meter out the same, I would then power up the I1 with the M600 battery.

The good news here is that the electronics aren't going to blow up or blow up your bird. They'll either work or they won't. The only real discrepancy here is that the M600 batteries are designed to function in an array, so I would guess that MAYBE they talk to EACH OTHER, but maybe NOT. The Inspire batteries do not have this same function. Worth noting: The M600 functions in a parallel array, not a series array. So my educated guess is that the M600 battery will power up the Inspire. The only real questions are:

1) Will the M600 battery pass through POST?
2) Will the M600 battery net correct telemetry information/data?

There's only one way to know for sure.

I can tell you this; I use an M600 Hex charger for my Inspire 1 batteries. It works so well that I purchased a hex charger FOR my Inspire 1. BUT...the charger doesn't utilize the data pins.

I need to know if the Matrice 600’s TB48S can be used in the I1 - anyone tried it? Given same power, same everything apart from the lid?

Does the Matrice battery physically FIT in the Inspire 1? Off hand, I'm going to say "no." And even if it physically fits, does it physically "snap" in? I'm going to say no. So, before you power up anything, have you tried to physically fit the M600 battery into the I1?

If it's not, does that just mean the circuitboard needs to be changed over as well?

That seems like it would be more trouble than it's worth.

(I assume it fits in the lid of the I1?)

You would probably be the first.

Really appreciate some advice, especially if you’ve given it a go, before I go spend a few hundred on one, only to kill it!

I seriously doubt you will "kill" the battery or the bird. Voltage and amperage are identical. This is the biggest hurdle. And unless there is inconsistent voltage passing through the data pins, I would say you are good to go. But as I advised, I would meter all the pins.

You have me curious, so I may do this myself. I just don't have access to either battery as I type. I'll try to get around to this in the next day or so.

D

 

[dougcjohn]

I'd agree, the physical battery is identical... that's even expressed by part numbers. The battery top is no issue, you can easily swap the plastic lid removing a few screws to release the circuit board... and that would correct any alignment to snap into place... althogh swapping both on my experiments show that both firmly snap into the other platforms battery wells... just round top in a M600P bay looks odd.

The area I'm uncertain and would effect battery reporting properly to the app is the circuit panel. The I1 is a single battery, the M600P is a 6 Battery pak... I question if the circuit in each battery is even aware of the other 5, and it's the app that combines the pak's information. But that would require a verification test.

Tests: Place a 48S in I1 bay.. power up and start props... idle on deck. Read battery info on panel... all reporting normal?

Place 1 TB48 in M600Pro along with 5 48S.
Power up & spin props. Observe battery info on app and monitor if 48 reports like the 5 48S.

The use of the 48S in I1 is kinda the opposite that'd I'd assume... the 48S sells for more $$ than the 48... I'd think most would be looking to use the 48 in place of the 48S.

 

[Donnie Frank]

I'd agree, the physical battery is identical... that's even expressed by part numbers. The battery top is no issue, you can easily swap the plastic lid removing a few screws to release the circuit board... and that would correct any alignment to snap into place... althogh swapping both on my experiments show that both firmly snap into the other platforms battery wells... just round top in a M600P bay looks odd.

This is really good to know. Thanx for sharing this.

The area I'm uncertain and would effect battery reporting properly to the app is the circuit panel. The I1 is a single battery, the M600P is a 6 Battery pak... I question if the circuit in each battery is even aware of the other 5, and it's the app that combines the pak's information. But that would require a verification test.

Being somewhat of a computer nerd, I imagine that the battery array "smarts" are onboard the M600, and NOT in the batteries themselves. I'm thinking in terms of a RAID controller, which manages individual disks. If you think about it, they would have to engineer the array controller in such a way that the batteries are hot-swappable. The best (smartest) way to facilitate this would be via a controller circuit. Of course, I'm just speculating. But from an engineering perspective, I'm very sure DJI would engineer their battery management in this manner.

In other words, I'm going to guess that the batteries are NOT aware of each other.

The use of the 48S in I1 is kinda the opposite that'd I'd assume... the 48S sells for more $$ than the 48... I'd think most would be looking to use the 48 in place of the 48S.

The Inspire 1 batteries are becoming harder to find. Swapping of the M600 cell pack may be a solution to that problem for those of us who still use and love our Inspire 1's.

D

 

[dougcjohn]

Being somewhat of a computer nerd, I imagine that the battery array "smarts" are onboard the M600, and NOT in the batteries themselves. I'm thinking in terms of a RAID controller, which manages individual disks. If you think about it, they would have to engineer the array controller in such a way that the batteries are hot-swappable. The best (smartest) way to facilitate this would be via a controller circuit. Of course, I'm just speculating. But from an engineering perspective, I'm very sure DJI would engineer their battery management in this manner.

In other words, I'm going to guess that the batteries are NOT aware of each other.

The Inspire 1 batteries are becoming harder to find. Swapping of the M600 cell pack may be a solution to that problem for those of us who still use and love our Inspire 1's.
D

Hey Donnie, I follow your IT logic and assumptions and as a fellow IT... I'd suggest more of a Online UPS Stack methodology... like an APC Symmetra (7 Shelves, 4 Paks per shelf, 10 Batteries per Pak). It's nothing more than power distribution, all paks expected to supply similar power, electronics monitoring the shelf's battery condition but not managing any power output. Monitors only meant to alert if shelf, pak or battery dropped, but no logic to condition, route or balance load.

Similar to the M600Pro, if you inspect the electrical bus it's a pretty straight forward component. The "+ & -" cables tie into a center regulator hub in Parallel voltage connection... as far as the M600 is concerned, it's only monitoring total voltage... which is why you can't intermix 47S & 48S and why when you watch the App Battery screen, the batteries "can drop" in a very unequal manor... particularly if individual battery has a high IR or cells out of balance. ( ** That is one thing nice about the I1 & M600 47 & 48 series Batteries, they are the only DJI smart paks that can be fully re-balanced via a standard LiPoHV charger with a custom balance lead... greatly extends the potential life of the battery. ** )

The "smart" is in the circuit board on each battery... it's role is replace the User from concerning themselves about min, avg, max voltage, charge rates, and balance procedures. (although the balance procedures greatly improved in new models).

The question I had was if the circuit boards carried any associated 6-Pak information, which I doubt. I went out and took a few quick peeks on the M600Pro this afternoon and more convinced it's a simple smart battery circuit. Looking at the circuit boards, they look identical... although that's not a reliable indicator.

I'll pull a few TB48 out this weekend and throw them in my M600Pro in a "mix" for a deck test. You've got me curious now.

Regarding the Inspire 1 endearment... couldn't agree more! I own 2: 1v2Raw & 1v2Pro.
The I1 is "THE" Oldest Consumer "Professional" platform still in operation, and it continues to be one of the most used platforms... for all Consumer Brands. It's nearest "generation competition" was a Yuneec H920 and it was essentially dropped years ago after never getting full support from the company and didn't even approach the numbers of the Inspire 1. (The Phantom is highly used now by all, including Professional, but it wasn't released as a Professional Platform.)

The Inspire 1 has numerous 3rd party support / enhancement products including speciality cameras (Ag, MultiSpectrum, Carbon Props, Teather, etc)... still even being produced for it! Gram for Gram & Bang for Buck... it's a work horse and a Performer; It's a no frills, great operating machine! For the money, nothing comes close to it still... and as prices continue to climb, for many tasks it's becoming the best ROI craft on the market. That also goes for it's X5Raw... slower than the I2's X5S in processing... but overall still a strong, near equal performer and probably a better ROI when you include the 2 extra CODEC License costs, and the overly priced SSD sticks.

That all said, I haven't experienced a battery shortage for the I1 yet... harder to find good buys in new or used... but new at retail remains available. The TB48S is much higher priced and almost impossible to find at a good price... used or new. I'm actually hopeful, since the I1 doesn't appear to be fading into retirement... that someone will eventually provide a stable & compatible 3rd Party Battery, maybe even with a little higher capacity with the newer LiPo Gels. BUT... if looking for a good deal, and you've got your I1 battery tops... the 6 battery set of TB47S can be found at a discounted price brand new. Gives ya 6 fresh TB47, along with your Tops. I'd really like to see the TB48S be offered in a 6 Pak too. If anyone does this and has no need for the TB47S square tops... give me note... I may be interested to purchase.

 

[MCHL]

I came to the right place, that's for sure - you guys are all bloody geniuses! Thanks so much for your input and confirming my guesses.

Regarding pricing, here in New Zealand, I can pick up the 48S for $300NZD (around $195USD), whereas the 48 for the I1 I can't find for less than $420NZD and most of them are $450! This is the main reason for my question - I really don't want to pay $150 more for something that will do the same thing. The DJI store doesn't even sell them for the I1 anymore.

I'll pull a few TB48 out this weekend and throw them in my M600Pro in a "mix" for a deck test. You've got me curious now.

That would be really great if you could, Doug - unfortunately, I don't have an M600 to test on, and I'm pretty sure the one DJI store we have here in Auckland wouldn't be overly enthusiastic about me trying it with their equipment.

Thanks again for all your help gentlemen.

ML

 

[dougcjohn]

Regarding pricing, here in New Zealand, I can pick up the 48S for $300NZD (around $195USD), whereas the 48 for the I1 I can't find for less than $420NZD and most of them are $450! This is the main reason for my question - I really don't want to pay $150 more for something that will do the same thing. The DJI store doesn't even sell them for the I1 anymore.
ML

Wow, Really... a TB48 more than the TB48S... I see your point now.
So to clarify... are you wanting to fly with square tops or do you intend to swap Round tops?
The $195 for a 48S is a great price too... I'd like to see that in USA for New.
Average price in USA is $245 per TB48S and the avg for a 6-Pak of TB47S is $1100 ($183 per).

 

[MCHL]

Wow, Really... a TB48 more than the TB48S... I see your point now.
So to clarify... are you wanting to fly with square tops or do you intend to swap Round tops?
The $195 for a 48S is a great price too... I'd like to see that in USA for New.
Average price in USA is $245 per TB48S and the avg for a 6-Pak of TB47S is $1100 ($183 per).

I’ll be swapping over with the tops off my old 47s. If this works, I think I’ll make a model of the 47 so I can print new tops when they stop producing them for the I1!

You just have to buy 6 of them by the sounds of it, Doug. if it’s any consolation, the official DJI store here sells the 48S for $399NZD

 

[dougcjohn]

I’ll be swapping over with the tops off my old 47s. If this works, I think I’ll make a model of the 47 so I can print new tops when they stop producing them for the I1!

You just have to buy 6 of them by the sounds of it, Doug. if it’s any consolation, the official DJI store here sells the 48S for $399NZD

OK, I'll have some results for you later today... tomorrow at the latest.
The DJI Online store here sells new TB48S for $245 & free shipping, no tax.
Not bad...but I'd prefer $75-130 like most other standard LiPo of this size.

There's been a few guys playing with re-building the TB48... hasn't gotten very far yet in reality. I'm hopeful either that spawns into reality or a 3rd Party gets the rights to manufacture.

Regarding Batteries: I'm building a S1000 Octal with longer booms, 18" foldable Carbon props, stronger motors (E1200 TPS kits), A3 Pro & Lightbridge 2 with the M600Pro gimbal mounts. Essentially making a M600Pro that will use Tattu 22000 Smart batteries (tandem) in place of the TB48S. So much lower cost in batteries... oh and the sound of a Octal is pretty cool! The M600Pro Firmware is basically the same as the A3/LB2 FW setup... all cameras X3, Z3, X5, X5Raw, XT Thermal, and RoninMX are supported in the A3/LB Firmware... only difference is the XT2 not supported (by FW only).

 

[dougcjohn]

I’ll be swapping over with the tops off my old 47s. If this works, I think I’ll make a model of the 47 so I can print new tops when they stop producing them for the I1!

Well... sorry to say, swapping 48 with 48S is not straight forward as hoped.... and I assumed!
Turns out the Circuit Board is NOT compatible with the Inspires FW & expectations when connected.
It gives a battery failure warning, shows unknown volts, and indicates Motors have overheated.
In reality, the Inspire powered up fine, camera calibrated and video was transmitted to RC Tablet and full camera control.

In conclusion... to make this work, you'd need the Round Top & Inspire Circuit board.


From here... I played a bit indicated by the following photos for those interested or entertaining performing the swap.
*** First off, I was wrong on the Top fitting either... I was meaning the Round Top fit in the M600Pro bays. ***

The full swap isn't overly difficult, but it does require patience and careful handling.
Removing the Top is quick... a few flat blade screw drivers (3).. 2 at rear to release hooks... then while holding top up with a little thumb pressure... release the Lf & Rt side rear hooks... from there is a quick release of ft hooks and top comes off clean & undamaged.

Remove the 4 Screws holding Circuit board in top.
Remove the Balance Lead on Circuit board.
Carefully unsnap with flat blade screw driver, the NON-Power Connector side of frame pieces, then release the bottom and move to bottom of Power side. Carefully unsnap the 2 snaps at the Power connector.
** This allows you to remove the terminal plate and the frames to access and remove the Temp Sensor Tip that is lightly glued in between 2 Gel Packs.
*** Keep in Mind, with screw drivers and probing around... you're working with LiPo Gel behind a thin skin cell.

Desolder the 2 Main Leads from the Circuit Board.
Move Circuit Board with Temp Sensor attached to new Battery Pack.
*** This is YOUR responsibility, if you don't know how to desolder & manage heat on board and resolder resin boards, don't attempt.
*** This is a LIVE LiPO, not entertaining to short a LiPo... remove Positive Lead and insure it makes NO Contact with Board or a Ground Source.
*** I would recommend you desolder the board that will be discarded FIRST to get into the groove and verify temps. Better to cook a bad board and practice your desoldering on a board that will be tossed.
*** In pic 9 (10 pics) the 2 large leads in corner of board in Ft of Temp sensor are the main leads to desolder. It's nice they are in corner and clear of any micro-solder component.

Reverse Order to reassemble the battery back to it's normal state.


**** NOTE: If you don't Disconnect the Balance Lead from the Circuit Board, the board with go into a "Error Status" that most folks have not resolved and tossed the battery. The Error status is "constant blinking" of Power Light & Charge LEDs and unable to turn OFF or Charge.
The battery is useless and if left to blink, will take itself completely down and won't accept a charge.

HOW TO Correct a Battery Failure - Constant Blinking, Won't Turn Off.
Remove Top, disconnect Balance lead from Battery, Plug In Charger for 10-15 seconds, Unplug Charger 10 seconds, then Plug into Charger again and LEAVE Plugged in & charging... and now Connect the Balance Lead back onto Battery while charging.
Let it sit, it will most likely blink a few odd blinks... then begin blinking like it's charging normally.
Let it charge for at least 3-5 minutes before removing... when removing... the Power Button should work again and the LED give proper status and behavior.

In hast to take battery down, I didn't follow my own instructions and I had a pretty new TB48 now flashing, not turning off and basically INOP and ruined. The above corrected the blinking - no off problem without issue.

 

[dougcjohn]

Offer... $5 bucks per cable...
Got a request to ask... if any of you have dead batteries, practice your desolder skills.
If you have "toss batteries", I'd like to obtain the extra Balance Lead cable that connects the circuit board & battery. The 2 leads going to terminal plate can be snipped leaving the wire as long as possible on the balance lead side. I'd be happy to pay $5 per cable too.

 

[MCHL]

You’re a leg end, Doug! Thanks for putting all that effort in!

How long do you think it took, and how long you think it would take second time around?

Did it take any of the 47 info with it? Is the new one going to be the first TB47 to do 450 cycles? Hahahaha???

 

[Detritalgeo]

I am happy to swap boards if it means a fresh TB48. I am sure we can use some battery BMS chip software to reset the cycle count as well.

Thanks for the proof of concept.

 

[dougcjohn]

Had a 2nd thought... don't believe it changes anything. But was wondering if the Circuit panel for the 47 vs 48 are different. I was swapping a 47 to 48, thinking they were just different mAh and same voltage shouldn't create the issues above. I'll lean towards the I1 & M600 battery IC boards.

 

[Dobmatt]

Had a 2nd thought... don't believe it changes anything. But was wondering if the Circuit panel for the 47 vs 48 are different. I was swapping a 47 to 48, thinking they were just different mAh and same voltage shouldn't create the issues above. I'll lean towards the I1 & M600 battery IC boards.

Thank you Brother dougcjohn for pioneering this idea I was thinking about some time ago. I refuse to retire my trustworthy Inspire 1 Raw, even if I fly Inspire 2 and M200 as well.

 

[SierraSARPilot]

I would also like to thank dougcjohn . I have 3 - I1 Pros and related gear, including 12 TB-48's that I treat like gold these days. I have hung onto 3 dead 48's and a couple of 47's. It is encouraging to know we may have an option, at least until they decide to retire the 600.

 

[dougcjohn]

We're all in this together, we all feed ideas to each other. I'm with ya, have 2 I1's... 1 is a I1Raw (v2) and 2nd is I1Prov2. Don't fly them as much now... but they were the icons of performance... no OA, no bells, just pure performance with retractable gear. In comparison to what was a available when the Inspire 1 was introduced... it's was leaps ahead in perfomance, agility, and design.

With their unending popularity, I keep thinking some company will introduce batteries or gel pack to rebuild existing. DJI has a abandoned the I1, so it's either slow death or 3rd party steps up. Actually since we've determined it's only the FW on the IC that is different, they could make 1 pak for T48, 48S, etc. and provide the software to flash the IC with correct FW, quick change the top and done.

We can hope!!

 

[matteog]

There's still hope for Inspire 1 users...
(Also reducing e-waste from throwing away old batteries)
REGENERATED TB48 battery for DJI Inspire 1/Pro/v2

 

[dlcarterjr]

Thanks for posting. I just got a TB48S in from Amazon and am going to attempt this mod for my Inspire 1. Trying to round up some 48 tops, now.

 

[dougcjohn]

There's still hope for Inspire 1 users...
(Also reducing e-waste from throwing away old batteries)
REGENERATED TB48 battery for DJI Inspire 1/Pro/v2
View attachment 29601

Interesting, is the Koptermax battery a DJI manufactured piece? Is that a I1 top or a Koptermax top? If a I1 top, did the Koptermax circuit board work with I1?

Any ballpark on price for the TB48K?
Good find, wasn't aware of the K version.