Flying UAV for Non-Recreational use

Andrew Woodward · Aug 22, 2015

Ah, yes. Non-personal use is much easier, of course. My StateFarm guy looked at me like I had three heads when I asked him about "Drone Business Liability" insurance.

Mazz · Aug 23, 2015

To fly and make money in the U.S. without an exception you must use the available loophole. All filming and photographing is for personal use. During this you are completely covered. You may, however, choose to sell your footage, pictures, or any videos after the fact, legally and without issues.
Insurance is worth exactly what it says. If a person is hurt, insurance will cover it. If you break something, insurance will cover it. It is also something that will get you permission to roam a lot more properties freely. Insurance is not there to deal with the FAA or any legal matters. They pretty much have nothing to do with each other.
I suggest everyone do their homework and know what you are getting in to and what you're talking about. I do not just ask a lawyer when I have questions. I literally have one on my payroll for my companies who checks before I mess up. The amounts of money, and seriousness of my work has required it for years (not just quadcopters). It may be worth looking into for some others.

TrumperyDust · Aug 23, 2015

Hercules_One said:
I'm really sorry to bump in your thread, but I need someone's experience to learn.
May I ask how those potential clients contacted you? I have been promoting my little entrepreneurship but to no avail. Was it for word of mouth with your contacts? Yes, maybe for your photograph background too.

Cheers and good luck!

No worries, ask away! If your looking for advice from more experienced people..... That is not me but.....For me it started with a wedding, a realtor who wanted pictures taken, and construction of a local skate park. (I approached them) Everything has been by word of mouth.
I've gotten jobs just by asking permission to film the tee at a local golf course. Now the owner wants a promotional video done. I think it's all about being courteous, asking permission and letting people know your out there and available. And of course, flying safely. Also from this thread, I've found that it's probably a good idea to get insured! If the FAA ever lets up on their restrictions, I'd be more aggressive and do some active advertising

TrumperyDust · Aug 23, 2015

Mazz said:
To fly and make money in the U.S. without an exception you must use the available loophole. All filming and photographing is for personal use. During this you are completely covered. You may, however, choose to sell your footage, pictures, or any videos after the fact, legally and without issues.
Insurance is worth exactly what it says. If a person is hurt, insurance will cover it. If you break something, insurance will cover it. It is also something that will get you permission to roam a lot more properties freely. Insurance is not there to deal with the FAA or any legal matters. They pretty much have nothing to do with each other.
I suggest everyone do their homework and know what you are getting in to and what you're talking about. I do not just ask a lawyer when I have questions. I literally have one on my payroll for my companies who checks before I mess up. The amounts of money, and seriousness of my work has required it for years (not just quadcopters). It may be worth looking into for some others.

So Mazz your saying I could take pictures of the local skatepark. Let them know I happen to have pictures of the park and they could buy them from me??? But they can't hire me to specifically take pictures? Is that correct?

Outta Control · Aug 23, 2015

TrumperyDust said:
So Mazz your saying I could take pictures of the local skatepark. Let them know I happen to have pictures of the park and they could buy them from me??? But they can't hire me to specifically take pictures? Is that correct?

That is what I do for my still shots photography.

Mazz · Aug 23, 2015

TrumperyDust said:
So Mazz your saying I could take pictures of the local skatepark. Let them know I happen to have pictures of the park and they could buy them from me??? But they can't hire me to specifically take pictures? Is that correct?

This was the article that was referred to earlier. Take it for what it is worth.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...s-from-citizen-journalists-not-professionals/

Here is the Memo:

TrumperyDust · Aug 23, 2015

Mazz said:
This was the article that was referred to earlier. Take it for what it is worth.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...s-from-citizen-journalists-not-professionals/

Here is the Memo:View attachment 3346 View attachment 3347

It's starting to sink in! Trumpy likey loophole!

Hercules_One · Aug 23, 2015

TrumperyDust said:
No worries, ask away! If your looking for advice from more experienced people..... That is not me but.....For me it started with a wedding, a realtor who wanted pictures taken, and construction of a local skate park. (I approached them) Everything has been by word of mouth.
I've gotten jobs just by asking permission to film the tee at a local golf course. Now the owner wants a promotional video done. I think it's all about being courteous, asking permission and letting people know your out there and available. And of course, flying safely. Also from this thread, I've found that it's probably a good idea to get insured! If the FAA ever lets up on their restrictions, I'd be more aggressive and do some active advertising

Thank you Trumpery, that is some good quality advise

theheliguy · Aug 23, 2015

Mazz said:
Insurance will need to be through an aviation insurance company. There are several around. I use Sutton James and my brokers name is Airika Ackerman (feel free to contact her for yourself). That is one option. Business name is on you and making a small LLC is helpful when billing and making bank accounts. Also keeps Uncle Sam happy since he gets his share.
As long as you fly safe and in accordance with the FARs you should have no issues. Keep it under 400ft, away from people not involved in the shoot, get SIGNED permission from people and property you are flying over, and try not to piss anyone off. Lastly, what seems to get me the farthest, is be nice to people. Talk to them and answer questions. I have had zero run ins with people where they left upset. A few close calls but some simple dialogue and friendly explanations have kept me out of trouble.

For those who dont plan on getting a license or 333 I would suggest a verification with your insurance agent. They can insure all day but when you file a claim and they find out you were operating contrary to the law the can and will most likely refuse to pay the claim. You can't insure an illegal activity...

theheliguy · Aug 23, 2015

TrumperyDust said:
Just read on a website www.commercialdronehelper.org where they offer an easy to use Section 333 FAA exemption template, that you typically have to hire a lawyer (sometimes costing up to $5000) and you need to have a pilot license or be willing to hire a pilot to fly for you?!?! Wow! I need to have a regular pilots license to fly my DJI drone commercially?!!!? This just keeps getting deeper and deeper! I swear the more I look into this the more questions I have!

Don't get your mind locked on airplanes if you want to be legal. A sport pilot rating can be obtained in a powered parachute for 1/4 the cost and only 3 weeks.

theheliguy · Aug 23, 2015

Mazz said:
This was the article that was referred to earlier. Take it for what it is worth.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...s-from-citizen-journalists-not-professionals/

Here is the Memo:View attachment 3346 View attachment 3347

Reading an FAA brief is like reading a law book... Am I the only one who saw the topic header for News Gathering. Unless your video of the skate park is bought by the local news this memo has no relevance.

Mazz · Aug 23, 2015

Insurance is like money, it only works if you trust it. Stay within the law and you shouldn't have an issue. We all have our ways of doing things. Thats our way. I do not suggest or advise anyone do anything without doing their own research. Don't just listen to me or any one other person on the Internet.

Outta Control · Aug 23, 2015

It is pretty obvious there are 2 camps in this forum and unless someone actually gets dinged or made as an example by the FAA, that means a full conviction through the courts let it be like John Lennon says.

AviationBroker · Aug 24, 2015

Hello,

I am an aviation insurance broker that is appointed with all of the top rated aircraft insurance companies. I am working very closely with 2 companies in particu;ar that are writing commercial UAV insurance policies, Global Aerospace and AIG Aerospace. I can also offer "hobbyist" policies through a HCC backed company called USSIC. However, the recreational policies are rather pricey for just flying for pleasure.

I have been hearing a lot of things about these AMA insurance policies. I have yet to read one to see what it actually covers. I have heard that there are many exclusions including that the aircraft must be operated at a AMA sanctioned airfield and that the policy only provides coverage for recreational purposes. Would anybody be able to send me a copy of one of these policies? Or, point me in the direction of a sample policy online? I would really like to review one and see what is actually covered.

Thanks,

Joe

Dave Stanton · Aug 24, 2015

Many good points here TrumperyDust even amid the sniping! OuttaControl has good solid suggestions. Even the scenario from CaptainBadge is not that crazy. Here's my take on the insurance part. I worked for a giant insurance company for almost 18 years so I know a little bit and we've had conversations with our current carrier. Make sure you ASK questions, many questions, of your agent. Even use the Captain's scenario. If the agent "says" you're covered, fine, GET IT IN WRITING! A good insurance company, with a signed contract, won't just dump you on the first claim. Frankly, most people who sue you just want some kind of settlement out of your insurance company and if you're insured for 2.5 million, they'll settle for much less (the lawyer wants the money and gets most of it anyway). You'll pay much higher premiums later. More than one claim and your company may dump you. Best advice, get permission to shoot anything or any one, written permission. I am finding many paranoid people these days when I fly our I1 and I'm in Texas so we have a lot of conspiracy nuts!!! If you are flying in a neighborhood lets say for a realtor and you're nervous, set up a 2nd camera shooting just you showing you've gone through all the safety procedures to fly and are operating carefully and professionally. That might even include a person who is just your spotter. We may all be required to have them in the future. Be careful, have fun, do your best and show people that pilots who fly UAVs commercially are competent professionals who can produce cinema quality video. Good Luck TrumperyDust.

Flying UAV for Non-Recreational use

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