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Is Pro Res Worth The Money

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Hi all, I've owned an I2 with an X4S for some time (picked it up dirt cheap) and really haven't flown it for my commercial work which is mainly real estate as I have a P4Pro+ which is easier to lug around etc etc. I have however recently been on a quest to shoot better quality landscapes showcasing the amazing Australian outback (video and still images) and the P4Pro+ certainly has it's limitations and I've tried all the different picture profiles inc DLOG and neat video to clean up the footage, LUT's etc etc. Dont get me wrong it's OK but I do want to lift my game up a notch or two.
With the announcement of the Mavic 3 I thought, Hooray it's a Mini Inspire, let's flick the I2 and get one ASAP ! What's not to love with great flight time, similar camera specs to the X5S and a smaller form factor, however with looking at the real numbers and performance of the M3 my conclusion and decision was to leave it for now until they sort out ALL the bugs and invest in an X5S for my I2. I managed to pick one up second hand for $700 AUD with the 15mm DJI lens and a Olympus 45mm f1.8 and was planning on getting the Pro Res licence only, however I have just discovered that the original CineSSD's are no longer manufactured and that the new 960 Gb unit is a whopping $2700 AUD and that's just insane especially given that the Pro Res licence at $860 AUD is on top of that as well as a reader $$$$$$. My question to all of you that have traveled the same path is it worth the upgrade ? Will I achieve the below objectives taking into consideration at present it's just a personal quest and the paid gigs demanding this level of quality arent there at present ?

1/ Better low light performance
2/ Considerably more detail and sharper video
3/ Better resolution still images

In reality if the jump to Pro Res is only a minor improvement then I'll probably hold off and keep the Circa $4000 AUD for the next best thing from another manufacturer at sometime in the near future as from what I can see they are finally catching up and the I2 is getting a bit long in the tooth.

P.S How does DJI justify this cost for a rebranded Samsung SSD that only costs $200 AUD ? IMHO they are digging themselves they're own grave and giving rise to the late coming competition ! Bring it on I say.

Cheers and thanks in advance for your comments

Stu aka "The Stuminator"
 
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Hi all, I've owned an I2 with an X4S for some time (picked it up dirt cheap) and really haven't flown it for my commercial work which is mainly real estate as I have a P4Pro+ which is easier to lug around etc etc. I have however recently been on a quest to shoot better quality landscapes showcasing the amazing Australian outback (video and still images) and the P4Pro+ certainly has it's limitations and I've tried all the different picture profiles inc DLOG and neat video to clean up the footage, LUT's etc etc. Dont get me wrong it's OK but I do want to lift my game up a notch or two.
With the announcement of the Mavic 3 I thought, Hooray it's a Mini Inspire, let's flick the I2 and get one ASAP ! What's not to love with great flight time, similar camera specs to the X5S and a smaller form factor, however with looking at the real numbers and performance of the M3 my conclusion and decision was to leave it for now until they sort out ALL the bugs and invest in an X5S for my I2. I managed to pick one up second hand for $700 AUD with the 15mm DJI lens and a Olympus 45mm f1.8 and was planning on getting the Pro Res licence only, however I have just discovered that the original CineSSD's are no longer manufactured and that the new 960 Gb unit is a whopping $2700 AUD and that's just insane especially given that the Pro Res licence at $860 AUD is on top of that as well as a reader $$$$$$. My question to all of you that have traveled the same path is it worth the upgrade ? Will I achieve the below objectives taking into consideration at present it's just a personal quest and the paid gigs demanding this level of quality arent there at present ?

1/ Better low light performance
2/ Considerably more detail and sharper video
3/ Better resolution still images

In reality if the jump to Pro Res is only a minor improvement then I'll probably hold off and keep the Circa $4000 AUD for the next best thing from another manufacturer at sometime in the near future as from what I can see they are finally catching up and the I2 is getting a bit long in the tooth.

P.S How does DJI justify this cost for a rebranded Samsung SSD that only costs $200 AUD ? IMHO they are digging themselves they're own grave and giving rise to the late coming competition ! Bring it on I say.

Cheers and thanks in advance for your comments

Stu aka "The Stuminator"
The simple answer it is not worth the $$$$.
1.
ProRes has nothing to do with taking stills unless you'd want to extract a grab from a video.
2.
The ProRes won't give you a 'sharper' video.

Pro Res is sure an improvement over .h264 and 265 but the difference will be in most shooting situations marginal. Unless you have a good client who demands ProRes (and pays you handsomely for that) the $$$$ investment is not proportional to the marginal quality gain. I spent ton of time comparing ProRes with properly exposed .h264 shot in D-Cinelike with X5S and I can tell you the difference was negligible at best.
Yes, the files are holding color information a bit better, especially in deep shadows and they provide a bit more latitude for heavy grading but if the originals are properly exposed and only need a bit of tweaking in post to look good the end viewer would be hard pressed to tell if the originals were shot in ProRes or .h264 or 265. Mind you most big production houses would want ProRes Raw and X7, as a bare minimum anyway.
I would suggest to you to ask someone who's got X5S to shoot a sample footage for you in ProRes and .h265 at the same time, so you can play with the files in your favorite editor and see the difference for yourself before plunging into spending big $$$$
Just my layman's opinion and advice 😉
 
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The simple answer it is not worth the $$$$.
1.
ProRes has nothing to do with taking stills unless you'd want to extract a grab from a video.
2.
The ProRes won't give you a 'sharper' video.

Pro Res is sure an improvement over .h264 and 265 but the difference will be in most shooting situations marginal. Unless you have a good client who demands ProRes (and pays you handsomely for that) the $$$$ investment is not proportional to the marginal quality gain. I spent ton of time comparing ProRes with properly exposed .h264 shot in D-Cinelike with X5S and I can tell you the difference was negligible at best.
Yes, the files are holding color information a bit better, especially in deep shadows and they provide a bit more latitude for heavy grading but if the originals are properly exposed and only need a bit of tweaking in post to look good the end viewer would be hard pressed to tell if the originals were shot in ProRes or .h264 or 265. Mind you most big production houses would want ProRes Raw and X7, as a bare minimum anyway.
I would suggest to you to ask someone who's got X5S to shoot a sample footage for you in ProRes and .h265 at the same time, so you can play with the files in your favorite editor and see the difference for yourself before plunging into spending big $$$$
Just my layman's opinion and advice 😉
Cheers mmarian, I appreciate your comments and hope the X5S shooting in .h264 will at least be noticeably better than my P4PRO. I’ll give Pro Res a miss for now.

Cheers Stuminator
 
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Cheers mmarian, I appreciate your comments and hope the X5S shooting in .h264 will at least be noticeably better than my P4PRO. I’ll give Pro Res a miss for now.

Cheers Stuminator
No problem. Other people might have different experience and would advocate how amazing the ProRes is. I try not be biased and swayed by numbers. I simply look closely at the footage and form my own opinion. I believe that you should be able to see some appreciable difference between Phantom and X5S. The M43 sensor provides for greater DR and the colors are "deeper" for lack of a better word. The footage grades better and I definitelly can see the difference between X4S and X5S. Shoot in 4K and D-Cinelike and in .h265 if possible. Use ND filters, expose correctly, be gentle in post-processing and grading and you'll be happy with your videos, no doubt..
 
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No problem. Other people might have different experience and would advocate how amazing the ProRes is. I try not be biased and swayed by numbers. I simply look closely at the footage and form my own opinion. I believe that you should be able to see some appreciable difference between Phantom and X5S. The M43 sensor provides for greater DR and the colors are "deeper" for lack of a better word. The footage grades better and I definitelly can see the difference between X4S and X5S. Shoot in 4K and D-Cinelike and in .h265 if possible. Use ND filters, expose correctly, be gentle in post-processing and grading and you'll be happy with your videos, no doubt..
Thanks again for the tips. Looking forward to finally getting some use out of the I2. Q. Can you recommend a quality fixed or variable ND / PL that can be used for both the DJI 15mm and the Olympus 45mm f1.8 using a thread adaptor ?
on the P4PRO I’ve rarely ever needed anything else other than a ND 4 except when using D-Log.

Cheers
Stu
 
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Thanks again for the tips. Looking forward to finally getting some use out of the I2. Q. Can you recommend a quality fixed or variable ND / PL that can be used for both the DJI 15mm and the Olympus 45mm f1.8 using a thread adaptor ?
on the P4PRO I’ve rarely ever needed anything else other than a ND 4 except when using D-Log.

Cheers
Stu
Again, there are quite a few options out there. I personally use Firecrest IRND, the most used during daylight is density1.2. There are other brands i.e. Polarpro etc.
I guess you already know that the 45mm lens requires step-up ring and a balancing ring or the 46mm filter, info is on DJI website. I hope you won't mind me taking the liberty to mention that the Oly 12mm f2 being equivalent to 24mm lens of FF is my favorite focal length and it has high optical quality too. Most of what I do is shot with this lens, stills as well as video.
 
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Many thanks & I wasn’t aware of the required balancing rings so I’ll get onto that. I’ll investigate the Oly 12mm.
 
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Depends on your audience
If you work on productions, they will likely GREATLY prefer you hand in ProRes files... and there is a NOTICEABLE quality difference.
But if you just shoot for personal or YouTube etc, don't bother
 
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Here's my 2cents worth mate. We are in Oz as well and have gone through the whole dilemma that you're considering now.

What DJI have done with the SSD is criminal. There is no need to discontinue all but the most expensive SSD other than they really really want people to move away from the I2. It is waaaaay too much drone for the money that was paid most probably many years ago now. They want that fresh upgrade money.

One major reason to upgrade though is backups. If you are shooting footage for someone else it's VERY handy that when you shoot and record footage onto the SSD you are simultaneously recording h264/265 onto the SD using a completely different codec and colour profile. Shoot cinema profile on the SSD and are more direct to client colour profile in 264 onto the SD. If you are providing dailies it can save you time as well as giving you some protection from errors.

Now ProRes. We bought the ProRes license only and commercial customers that request high quality video have always asked for ProRes. Every single time. The camera X5/x7 they care less about and mainly are interested in focal lengths - what focal length you can provide (or use to give them the shot they are after safely). But they always want ProRes and for us it's always been 422. We offer 4444 because it's safer for us to provide the exposure/saturation they are after but 10/10 times they say 422. Sometimes we shoot in 4444 and then edit and convert if it's super challenging conditions as the extra bit depth can be very handy at the edges of exposure, highlights and whites .

Now it's important to understand that when shooting ProRes you are not getting ANY lens correction info applied to your footage. You will have to do this manually. Sometimes this is no drama at all but sometimes you will be pulling your hair out. It should always be the same and easy - just apply the right distortion values - but trust me sometimes you need to juggle the settings a bit. It's for this reason alone that I would consider a RAW license. You get more flexibility in post. You have pixel perfect, distortion free footage right there at your fingertips and you have a noticeable amount of extra exposure protection. Especially in Australia where people from other locations just don't understand how harsh the sun and lighting can be here. You can always export to ProRes from RAW but you can't (or shouldn't) do it the other way around.

The other advantage to RAW is that is literally just a sequence of RAW images....For video & still work you can extract every frame and it's a stand alone, full resolution, pixel perfect image ready to drop into PS or Lightroom.

As to the quality there is a noticeable difference in quality including edges and colour information. People say there isn't, and depending on how well you shoot, edit and what you output - this can be true But the reality is that the codec has a much higher information rate and less compression. There's a reason why "the industry" use ProRes and RAW and it's because it's faster to work with and if you need to push it you can. The only reason we as drone pilots hate it, is because it costs extra money and the files are huge compared to what we are used to. Taking beautiful sunset shots with the purples, blues, yellows and oranges bouncing off the clouds and then pulling all this colour out in ProRes is magical. Most professionals can see the difference in their NLE immediately. But the cost of admission is high. I mean the pricing of the M3 with these codecs again is completely criminal.

If you expose poorly, cannot frame aesthetically or use "full auto", "A" or "S" more often than not, then maybe the difference in quality between ProRes/RAW and 264/265 is negligible. Or if you are doing little post work or your client is doing little post work then 264 with broadcast safe 709 colour space is more than fine (in fact I've found that ProRes is particularly sensitive to over exposure compared to DLog- a couple of times i've had ProRes footage peak too high on a reflective surface while the DLog "backup" saved the day).

We are still contemplating whether to upgrade our last I2 airframe to Raw.... it's already paid for itself and the extra cost will not bring additional work but it does make life easier. If something happens to the airframe at this stage, it's going to be difficult to replace so as an investment it really doesn't make sense. And DJI will not discount the pricing unless you buy the ProRes/Raw combined license up front.

To summarise if you are being asked for ProRes get it. One job should cover the licensing cost. If you are somebody that chases a "look" or want to experiment in post get ProRes or RAW. If you think redundant recording might save the day one day, get it. If many of your shots are such that you can't reshoot easily, get it. If you shoot in challenging lighting conditions, get it. If you're just shooting for YouTube or for kicks, 264/265 is more than enough.

One last point. If you buy the 900gb drive check with the retailer that it comes bundled with the reader. the bundle and the standalone drive cost the same amount but are different SCUs. I gather some retailers may also be unbundling to maximise profit.

edit.
Regarding filters, these days I'd argue that they are all as much as much. I have a mix of PolarPro, B&W and Urth. To cover yourself you'll need NDs of course. 0,4,8,16,32,64. Only get the 128 for still photography (and even then you'll hardly use it). For blue skies & beautiful water you'll want at least a 0,8,16 and stretching to 32 stop CIRC POL filters as well. In Australia you also really should consider Grad filters as well with a 0 or low stop bottom half and 4,8,16 and stretching to 32 on the top half. On those SUPER strong light mornings, days and evenings you'll want to pull some of the harshness out of the sky but leave the ground less filtered. It makes a huge difference especially as normally your subjects are on the ground but 1/3 or 50% of your shot is bright sky. We have 3 filter sets that we keep in cases in the Go-Box (ND, CIRCPOL and GRAD) because all of our commercial clients have asked for 180 degree shutter, 0 gain footage. Because you want to present the sharpest images possible you'll be hovering somewhere in the 4-7 (and as close to 5/5.6 as you can) stop exposure range. The Sony x5 sensor and the Panasonic/Olympus glass is awesome because it opens all the way out to 1.5/2.8 but optically it's far superior at 5.6 (and it's sure as hell more forgiving if you forget to or mess up the focus). That means your filters are critical in ensuring exposure.
 
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Here's my 2cents worth mate. We are in Oz as well and have gone through the whole dilemma that you're considering now.

What DJI have done with the SSD is criminal. There is no need to discontinue all but the most expensive SSD other than they really really want people to move away from the I2. It is waaaaay too much drone for the money that was paid most probably many years ago now. They want that fresh upgrade money.

One major reason to upgrade though is backups. If you are shooting footage for someone else it's VERY handy that when you shoot and record footage onto the SSD you are simultaneously recording h264/265 onto the SD using a completely different codec and colour profile. Shoot cinema profile on the SSD and are more direct to client colour profile in 264 onto the SD. If you are providing dailies it can save you time as well as giving you some protection from errors.

Now ProRes. We bought the ProRes license only and commercial customers that request high quality video have always asked for ProRes. Every single time. The camera X5/x7 they care less about and mainly are interested in focal lengths - what focal length you can provide (or use to give them the shot they are after safely). But they always want ProRes and for us it's always been 422. We offer 4444 because it's safer for us to provide the exposure/saturation they are after but 10/10 times they say 422. Sometimes we shoot in 4444 and then edit and convert if it's super challenging conditions as the extra bit depth can be very handy at the edges of exposure, highlights and whites .

Now it's important to understand that when shooting ProRes you are not getting ANY lens correction info applied to your footage. You will have to do this manually. Sometimes this is no drama at all but sometimes you will be pulling your hair out. It should always be the same and easy - just apply the right distortion values - but trust me sometimes you need to juggle the settings a bit. It's for this reason alone that I would consider a RAW license. You get more flexibility in post. You have pixel perfect, distortion free footage right there at your fingertips and you have a noticeable amount of extra exposure protection. Especially in Australia where people from other locations just don't understand how harsh the sun and lighting can be here. You can always export to ProRes from RAW but you can't (or shouldn't) do it the other way around.

The other advantage to RAW is that is literally just a sequence of RAW images....For video & still work you can extract every frame and it's a stand alone, full resolution, pixel perfect image ready to drop into PS or Lightroom.

As to the quality there is a noticeable difference in quality including edges and colour information. People say there isn't, and depending on how well you shoot, edit and what you output - this can be true But the reality is that the codec has a much higher information rate and less compression. There's a reason why "the industry" use ProRes and RAW and it's because it's faster to work with and if you need to push it you can. The only reason we as drone pilots hate it, is because it costs extra money and the files are huge compared to what we are used to. Taking beautiful sunset shots with the purples, blues, yellows and oranges bouncing off the clouds and then pulling all this colour out in ProRes is magical. Most professionals can see the difference in their NLE immediately. But the cost of admission is high. I mean the pricing of the M3 with these codecs again is completely criminal.

If you expose poorly, cannot frame aesthetically or use "full auto", "A" or "S" more often than not, then maybe the difference in quality between ProRes/RAW and 264/265 is negligible. Or if you are doing little post work or your client is doing little post work then 264 with broadcast safe 709 colour space is more than fine (in fact I've found that ProRes is particularly sensitive to over exposure compared to DLog- a couple of times i've had ProRes footage peak too high on a reflective surface while the DLog "backup" saved the day).

We are still contemplating whether to upgrade our last I2 airframe to Raw.... it's already paid for itself and the extra cost will not bring additional work but it does make life easier. If something happens to the airframe at this stage, it's going to be difficult to replace so as an investment it really doesn't make sense. And DJI will not discount the pricing unless you buy the ProRes/Raw combined license up front.

To summarise if you are being asked for ProRes get it. One job should cover the licensing cost. If you are somebody that chases a "look" or want to experiment in post get ProRes or RAW. If you think redundant recording might save the day one day, get it. If many of your shots are such that you can't reshoot easily, get it. If you shoot in challenging lighting conditions, get it. If you're just shooting for YouTube or for kicks, 264/265 is more than enough.

One last point. If you buy the 900gb drive check with the retailer that it comes bundled with the reader. the bundle and the standalone drive cost the same amount but are different SCUs. I gather some retailers may also be unbundling to maximise profit.

edit.
Regarding filters, these days I'd argue that they are all as much as much. I have a mix of PolarPro, B&W and Urth. To cover yourself you'll need NDs of course. 0,4,8,16,32,64. Only get the 128 for still photography (and even then you'll hardly use it). For blue skies & beautiful water you'll want at least a 0,8,16 and stretching to 32 stop CIRC POL filters as well. In Australia you also really should consider Grad filters as well with a 0 or low stop bottom half and 4,8,16 and stretching to 32 on the top half. On those SUPER strong light mornings, days and evenings you'll want to pull some of the harshness out of the sky but leave the ground less filtered. It makes a huge difference especially as normally your subjects are on the ground but 1/3 or 50% of your shot is bright sky. We have 3 filter sets that we keep in cases in the Go-Box (ND, CIRCPOL and GRAD) because all of our commercial clients have asked for 180 degree shutter, 0 gain footage. Because you want to present the sharpest images possible you'll be hovering somewhere in the 4-7 (and as close to 5/5.6 as you can) stop exposure range. The Sony x5 sensor and the Panasonic/Olympus glass is awesome because it opens all the way out to 1.5/2.8 but optically it's far superior at 5.6 (and it's sure as hell more forgiving if you forget to or mess up the focus). That means your filters are critical in ensuring exposure.
Cheers Z for a most detailed reply which answers my question very well, much appreciated.
As I’ve only just purchased the X5S for my I2 which I’ve owned for a couple of years but hardly flown, I think I’ll get the best I can from .h265 for the time being and then see how I go from there. I hold a ReOc & RePl and do very little work outside of my own commercial real estate agency so Pro Res / Raw is not at all required but that’s about to change as I’m about to semi retire and do the big lap around Oz and will be looking for multimedia production work as I go so getting the best results with landscapes, sunrises, sunsets and real estate will be a priority.
I’m hoping I can make some income from selling stock footage too so I’ll most likely make the jump to Pro Res / Raw at some point which may or may not be with the I2 as full frame over M4/3 would be my preference with my choice of lens rather than what DJI and the X7 are offering.

Back in the day (2005) I built my own multi rotors & gimbals swinging a Canon 5D MK II and other cameras using the Mikrokopter platform from Germany so I’m a bit of a veteran and can appreciate the level of perfection that operators go to to achieve next level results.
I find it interesting that there aren’t more competitors to DJI as without a doubt they stole and reverse engineered the idea from MK and progressed the platform to dominate the industry today.

Thanks for the heads up on the filters which I fully understand the necessity for, however I would like to hear from you or anyone who has nailed the best way / system / manufacturer to accommodate fixed and graduated ND’s CPL’s across the various lens thread sizes. I’m not a fan of the Polar Pro ND/CPL‘s that I’ve used on my P4PRO and would like to have the choice of just an ND or additional CPL as the shoot requires.
I’ve got a drawer full of old filters for lenses I no longer own and it would be great if I could future proof myself in the aerial image department.

Cheers

Stu
 
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Thanks for the heads up on the filters which I fully understand the necessity for, however I would like to hear from you or anyone who has nailed the best way / system / manufacturer to accommodate fixed and graduated ND’s CPL’s across the various lens thread sizes.
the 15mm and the 25mm primes use the same 46mm thread. the 45mm prime is a lot smaller which means you can get away with a simple aluminium adapter ring (in lieu of a balancing ring) and use the 46mm filters you have. If you have a tonne of existing filters at larger (but not too large) than 46mm size, a simple adapter ring will do the trick.

I don't like to stack filters on gimbals (or on normal lenses really) so I tend to stick with single filter options.
 
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the 15mm and the 25mm primes use the same 46mm thread. the 45mm prime is a lot smaller which means you can get away with a simple aluminium adapter ring (in lieu of a balancing ring) and use the 46mm filters you have. If you have a tonne of existing filters at larger (but not too large) than 46mm size, a simple adapter ring will do the trick.

I don't like to stack filters on gimbals (or on normal lenses really) so I tend to stick with single filter options.
DJI sell step up ring and standard 46mm balancing ring for the Oly 45. They are both priced reasonably and the lens balances well with the Firecrest ND filters or the balancing ring and no filter. Interestingly this lens causes stills to have about 5 pixel wide pixelated "frame" all around. It is hardly a big issue but present nevertheless. I have an action preset in PS to crop the corrupted pixels off.
 
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The simple answer it is not worth the $$$$.
1.
ProRes has nothing to do with taking stills unless you'd want to extract a grab from a video.
2.
The ProRes won't give you a 'sharper' video.

Pro Res is sure an improvement over .h264 and 265 but the difference will be in most shooting situations marginal. Unless you have a good client who demands ProRes (and pays you handsomely for that) the $$$$ investment is not proportional to the marginal quality gain. I spent ton of time comparing ProRes with properly exposed .h264 shot in D-Cinelike with X5S and I can tell you the difference was negligible at best.
Yes, the files are holding color information a bit better, especially in deep shadows and they provide a bit more latitude for heavy grading but if the originals are properly exposed and only need a bit of tweaking in post to look good the end viewer would be hard pressed to tell if the originals were shot in ProRes or .h264 or 265. Mind you most big production houses would want ProRes Raw and X7, as a bare minimum anyway.
I would suggest to you to ask someone who's got X5S to shoot a sample footage for you in ProRes and .h265 at the same time, so you can play with the files in your favorite editor and see the difference for yourself before plunging into spending big $$$$
Just my layman's opinion and advice 😉
I would be happy to take and supply test shots (at no cost) as described in 'mmarian' reply to your question regarding the X5S.
 

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