UK Byelaws - moral dilemma

[Richard-Inspire]

I have just come back disheartened from a trip to shoot some photos at Beachy Head in Eastbourne in the UK. Before going I checked that the area was not National Trust, and it seems to not be. So got there, and wanted to fly over the sea by the lighthouse, from up on the cliffs. Nobody around really, certainly not within 50m.

Got back to the car, and my 6 yr old daughter (!) pointed out a sign on a bin there - completely out of sight - which said no drone flying due to Eastbourne Downland bylaw 18. So i quickly looked it up, and found it to be pretty confusing. Here's the wording:

Model Aircraft

18.
(1) Where any part of the land has, by a notice conspicuously exhibited on the land, been set apart by the Council for the flying of power driven model aircraft, no person in any other part of the land shall release any such aircraft for flight, or control the flight of such an aircraft, and no person shall - (a) cause such an aircraft to take off; or (b) without reasonable excuse, cause such an aircraft to land, in such other part of the land.

(2) Where an area within a part of the land so set apart for the flying of power-driven model aircraft is designated by the Council as an area from which aircraft may be launched and is described in a notice placed in a conspicuous position on the land, no person shall release such an aircraft for flight, or cause such an aircraft to take off, in any part of the land other than that area.

(3) In this byelaw: "model aircraft" means an aircraft which either weighs not more than 7 kilograms without its fuel or is for the time being exempted (as a model aircraft) from the provisions of the Air Navigation Order; "power-driven" means driven by the combustion of petrol vapour or other combustible vapour or other combustible substances or by one or more electric motors or by compressed gas.​

I have a few questions:

1. I could not see a conspicuously exhibited notice anywhere of land set apart by the council for flying, so therefore did that mean I could fly where I wanted?
2. If I'm flying over sea anyway, does it even matter?
3. [more controversial] how many of you would have flown anyway? I'm not going to be flying near people, or entering restricted airspace as far as I'm away. I'm pretty sure no other aircraft want to occupy the airspace below ground level, within metres of a cliff edge.

I am not a "two fingers to regulations" guy, as is evidenced by the fact that I carried my inspire pro all the way over there, only to come back having not opened the case. I also respect all rules pertaining to airspace, 'people', private land, etc. I had even thought that I might get a professional license just to get members o the public off my back (I don't do anything professional - it's a hobby). BUT I'm increasingly starting to think that I should just ignore stuff like this. What reason is there for drones to be banned around there? I'm not even convinced that the bylaw does prevent drone use (or at least am not sufficiently clear on the law that I could be sure).

I have a mavic on order, which I'm excited about because it's small and quiet, and I'm hoping that it will enable me to get out and about in more scenarios than the rather 'scary looking' Inspire allows. Drones are about to become so common that I think rules should be in place to ensure they are only flown safely and in appropriate areas. But this kind of thing gets on my tits, because nobody is in danger there any more so than anywhere else in the country - it seems to only be banned due to ignorance and mean-spiritedness.

Thoughts people?

 

[AyrshireUAV]

My interpretation of the bye law is that it only pertains to petrol planes and aircraft similar to that. Not battery powered drones. As long as you aren't taking off or landing on private land then you shouldn't have a problem. I'd guess there must be a problem with private clubs all flying in the area etc. We don't have trespass laws in Scotland. Just be careful when flying off the cliffs as your barometer might get confused with the AMSL and AGL differences. I'd calibrate everything before taking off. Good luck.

 

[IrishSights]

My interpretation of the bye law is that it only pertains to petrol planes and aircraft similar to that. Not battery powered drones. As long as you aren't taking off or landing on private land then you shouldn't have a problem. I'd guess there must be a problem with private clubs all flying in the area etc. We don't have trespass laws in Scotland. Just be careful when flying off the cliffs as your barometer might get confused with the AMSL and AGL differences. I'd calibrate everything before taking off. Good luck.

So batteries are not electric then? Lol Are you just going to ignore where it says "or by one or more electric motors"?

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

 

[Richard-Inspire]

My guess is that the byelaw doesn't explicitly forbid it, but they are using its vagueness as an opportunity to put off drone flying. The poster (which could have been non-official - it was stuck to a bin) had a photo of a phantom on it.

People's ignorance is usually the problem on both sides of these disputes.


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[Richard-Inspire]

So batteries are not electric then? Lol Are you just going to ignore where it says "or by one or more electric motors"?

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

Bit strong. Perhaps he misread it.


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[Simon Mallin]

Richard,

I live in Eastbourne and have seen drones being flown along the cliffs at Beachy Head on a couple of occasions, though not in the last twelve months. However there is quite a bit of drone footage around of the cliffs and lighthouse, most of which looks like it's been done without regard to the CAA regulations as they fly over over people, cars, roads, etc. I therefore suspect unauthorised flying goes on.

Having downloaded the bylaw you refer to I see it's from 1997 (so clearly it wasn't written for drones) and like you, my interpretation is that you're only obliged to fly from a designated area if one exists. I agree that it doesn't say you can't fly if one doesn't ! I suspect somebody from the council has dug it out and just put it up to deter drone flyers in the hope that it may have some effect - on responsible pilots such as yourself. I can understand why they want to prohibit it as the cliffs are a nesting site, it's a very popular area for tourists and during the August airshow The Red Arrows and other planes fly very low over Beachy Head - the sign may actually have been erected for that as they also put up 'no drone flying' notices on the seafront during the airshow. But it can be virtually deserted early mornings and late evenings and offers some spectacular footage. It's tempting just to launch at times like this but be aware that the Beachy Head Chaplaincy service patrol the area 24/7 so they may report any drone activity to the police.

Irrespective of any bylaw the CAA regulations state that it's necessary to have the landowner's permission from which to launch the drone, even if it's to flown over the sea. I don't know whether Eastbourne Borough Council actually own or lease this land but you can probably obtain permission from their film liaison office (01323 415438). I have flown from the beach at Holywell and they were very helpful though it was necessary to complete an application form. Of course you could always launch from a boat !

One other comment / question is whether permission is needed to launch from the foreshore (between high and low tide marks). I've read that this is owned by the Crown and freely accessible for public use so unless otherwise stated it can be used as a launch site. I can't find a definitive answer and wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of Her Majesty so maybe somebody on this forum can enlighten us.

If you want to have a chat anytime then PM me.

 

[The Editor]

I have just come back disheartened from a trip to shoot some photos at Beachy Head in Eastbourne in the UK. Before going I checked that the area was not National Trust, and it seems to not be. So got there, and wanted to fly over the sea by the lighthouse, from up on the cliffs. Nobody around really, certainly not within 50m.

Got back to the car, and my 6 yr old daughter (!) pointed out a sign on a bin there - completely out of sight - which said no drone flying due to Eastbourne Downland bylaw 18. So i quickly looked it up, and found it to be pretty confusing. Here's the wording:

Model Aircraft

18.
(1) Where any part of the land has, by a notice conspicuously exhibited on the land, been set apart by the Council for the flying of power driven model aircraft, no person in any other part of the land shall release any such aircraft for flight, or control the flight of such an aircraft, and no person shall - (a) cause such an aircraft to take off; or (b) without reasonable excuse, cause such an aircraft to land, in such other part of the land.

(2) Where an area within a part of the land so set apart for the flying of power-driven model aircraft is designated by the Council as an area from which aircraft may be launched and is described in a notice placed in a conspicuous position on the land, no person shall release such an aircraft for flight, or cause such an aircraft to take off, in any part of the land other than that area.

(3) In this byelaw: "model aircraft" means an aircraft which either weighs not more than 7 kilograms without its fuel or is for the time being exempted (as a model aircraft) from the provisions of the Air Navigation Order; "power-driven" means driven by the combustion of petrol vapour or other combustible vapour or other combustible substances or by one or more electric motors or by compressed gas.​

I have a few questions:

1. I could not see a conspicuously exhibited notice anywhere of land set apart by the council for flying, so therefore did that mean I could fly where I wanted?
2. If I'm flying over sea anyway, does it even matter?
3. [more controversial] how many of you would have flown anyway? I'm not going to be flying near people, or entering restricted airspace as far as I'm away. I'm pretty sure no other aircraft want to occupy the airspace below ground level, within metres of a cliff edge.

I am not a "two fingers to regulations" guy, as is evidenced by the fact that I carried my inspire pro all the way over there, only to come back having not opened the case. I also respect all rules pertaining to airspace, 'people', private land, etc. I had even thought that I might get a professional license just to get members o the public off my back (I don't do anything professional - it's a hobby). BUT I'm increasingly starting to think that I should just ignore stuff like this. What reason is there for drones to be banned around there? I'm not even convinced that the bylaw does prevent drone use (or at least am not sufficiently clear on the law that I could be sure).

I have a mavic on order, which I'm excited about because it's small and quiet, and I'm hoping that it will enable me to get out and about in more scenarios than the rather 'scary looking' Inspire allows. Drones are about to become so common that I think rules should be in place to ensure they are only flown safely and in appropriate areas. But this kind of thing gets on my tits, because nobody is in danger there any more so than anywhere else in the country - it seems to only be banned due to ignorance and mean-spiritedness.

Thoughts people?

OK, to make this a little clearer and to shed some light on why UAV's are banned in the area.
Firstly the council is an arse for posting up that bylaw and if they had given the real reason rather than spouting bylaw 18 people might actually take notice.

The reason for the ban is because Peregrine Falcons are known to nest in the area and they are a protected (and rare) bird.
Why the local council can't actually tell people this is beyond me.
Additionally the penalty for disturbing them is quite steep (up to £5,000 per offence)

Probably good you chose not to open your Inspire case.

Hope that helps.

 

[Richard-Inspire]

Richard,

I live in Eastbourne and have seen drones being flown along the cliffs at Beachy Head on a couple of occasions, though not in the last twelve months. However there is quite a bit of drone footage around of the cliffs and lighthouse, most of which looks like it's been done without regard to the CAA regulations as they fly over over people, cars, roads, etc. I therefore suspect unauthorised flying goes on.

Having downloaded the bylaw you refer to I see it's from 1997 (so clearly it wasn't written for drones) and like you, my interpretation is that you're only obliged to fly from a designated area if one exists. I agree that it doesn't say you can't fly if one doesn't ! I suspect somebody from the council has dug it out and just put it up to deter drone flyers in the hope that it may have some effect - on responsible pilots such as yourself. I can understand why they want to prohibit it as the cliffs are a nesting site, it's a very popular area for tourists and during the August airshow The Red Arrows and other planes fly very low over Beachy Head - the sign may actually have been erected for that as they also put up 'no drone flying' notices on the seafront during the airshow. But it can be virtually deserted early mornings and late evenings and offers some spectacular footage. It's tempting just to launch at times like this but be aware that the Beachy Head Chaplaincy service patrol the area 24/7 so they may report any drone activity to the police.

Irrespective of any bylaw the CAA regulations state that it's necessary to have the landowner's permission from which to launch the drone, even if it's to flown over the sea. I don't know whether Eastbourne Borough Council actually own or lease this land but you can probably obtain permission from their film liaison office (01323 415438). I have flown from the beach at Holywell and they were very helpful though it was necessary to complete an application form. Of course you could always launch from a boat !

One other comment / question is whether permission is needed to launch from the foreshore (between high and low tide marks). I've read that this is owned by the Crown and freely accessible for public use so unless otherwise stated it can be used as a launch site. I can't find a definitive answer and wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of Her Majesty so maybe somebody on this forum can enlighten us.

If you want to have a chat anytime then PM me.

Thank you that's a fantastic answer. The airshow speculation seems quite likely - I've seen lots of those at airshows before (and very sensible obviously).

I take your point about the ownership of the land although i find that kind of thing very tedious. I would not consider doing anything on someone's private land, but when the general public do whatever the hell they like there, it seems a bit much to have to deal with Eastbourne council to get permission to launch a toy aircraft (assuming that this prerequisite extends to all drones).

Thanks for your considered response


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[Richard-Inspire]

Thanks. It does help this particular discussion.

But you are right. They don't deserve people to observe that rule when they only stick 1 x a5 poster, hidden away on the side of a bin, and have no signs anywhere else along the coast. Or any signs making any mention of nesting birds for that matter.

How do the nesting birds get on with the red arrows flying past? Surely it is seasonal, so if this were a legitimate environmental concern the decent thing to do would be to put up signs with the correct information about when it is not acceptable to fly, and what the fines are.


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[Richard-Inspire]

Looks like breeding session is approx March to May


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[IrishSights]

Bit strong. Perhaps he misread it.


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Fair enough

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

 

[apsussex]

Just to update on this in case anyone else is interested. Eastbourne Council have gone about it completely the wrong way. If they had made it clear it is due to disturbing Peregrine Falcons then maybe it would sink in more and people would actually take notice, although it is probably because they know its only seasonal so just an excuse to try and put people off all together but a stupid little sign isn't going to work.

Anyway, I worked with the Wild Life Trust last year as they wanted me to create an aerial film of the Rye Nature Reserve, and I was speaking to them about the issue of Peregrine Falcons, and the council not allowing permission in November for some work I was doing, they laughed and said they were long gone anyway, but I recently got in touch and had a response from one of the Peregrine experts with regards to safe distance and disturbance. This was the reply...

"There are concerns regarding use of drones near peregrine nest sites, both the legal issue with regard to disturbance to the peregrines but also I’ve heard of peregrines & buzzards taking out the drones! I don’t have any direct experience. Thus when advising on flying of drones near peregrine nest sites I’ve always recommended avoiding the breeding season (late Feb –end June) entirely if at all possible. I certainly would not recommend flying of drones within say 300m of a peregrine nest during the period late Feb-end June)."

What they did point out also was what actually constitutes a safe distance, so that is a recommendation only. Depending on wind you can barely hear a drone at that distance.

From experience of this when filming on the Nature Reserve last year I had to get footage of Camber Castle too (English Heritage are the strictest ever when it comes to permissions!) and there was a Peregrine nested in the tower, but I had the Reserve Site manager with me with binoculars to assess the situation of disturbing any birds throughout the day, and there were no issues with the Peregrine at all. In fact whilst I used the inspire for the most part, it didnt seem to cause any disturbance at all (although most of the time I was over 250ft).

 

[NickU]

Pere's are a Schedule 1 bird, so are highly protected around the nest site and when they have dependant young. But, the chicks are usually fledged by mid July and out of the nest, although they may still be semi-dependant on food passes frm the adults. The birds may be around later in the year hunting, but they'd certainly not be nesting and there'd be no reason for any kind of 'disturbance' to them or their young "on or at the nest" in November. You may not know there are protected birds nesting in an area (generally because they don't want to advertise the nest site to egg theives), if you're asked to move on by someone and they say there's a protected nest nearby, then best do as they ask. If you don't, then you could find yourself on the wrong side of PC Plod and the Beak and with a hefty fine

As to attacks, I don't think a Pere would attack a drone unless it was protecting a nest site or one of it's youngsters while they're still dependant for food on the adults.

Buzzards... again most likely only if they're defending a nest site (buzzards rather lazy birds and are not generally agressive). You many have a close encounter with them at other times of the year as they will come in for a brief look and then disappear off - unless you've a dead rabbit or two hanging under the drone .

I've had raptors come in and look at my drones on several occassions, but so far they've never attacked. It's quite nice to float around for a bit with a curious Red Kite

Should any bird harrass your drone, the best response is to climb straight up as high and as fast as you can, and to them move away quickly and return to a safe place to land near to you - if they see you near the drone as it's landing, they shouldn't continue to harass it as they'll see you as a bigger threat. When flying, birds can stoop down on to you when they have the height advantage, but they can't climb as fast as a drone can, and that gives you some time/space from them to get away! The fact that you gain the height advantage on them will also tend to make them more wary as their perception would then be that the drone would be in a position to stoop on them.

As we're coming up towards the start of nesting season, be a good neighbour to your birds and try not spook them, they're only trying to be good parents If they chase you once, OK not so much of a problem... but if they continually try to chase you away, then take the hint and find somewhere else to fly, or go a bit higher and leave them in peace

 

[The Editor]

Pere's are a Schedule 1 bird, so are highly protected around the nest site and when they have dependant young. But, the chicks are usually fledged by mid July and out of the nest, although they may still be semi-dependant on food passes frm the adults. The birds may be around later in the year hunting, but they'd certainly not be nesting and there'd be no reason for any kind of 'disturbance' to them or their young "on or at the nest" in November. You may not know there are protected birds nesting in an area (generally because they don't want to advertise the nest site to egg theives), if you're asked to move on by someone and they say there's a protected nest nearby, then best do as they ask. If you don't, then you could find yourself on the wrong side of PC Plod and the Beak and with a hefty fine

As to attacks, I don't think a Pere would attack a drone unless it was protecting a nest site or one of it's youngsters while they're still dependant for food on the adults.

Buzzards... again most likely only if they're defending a nest site (buzzards rather lazy birds and are not generally agressive). You many have a close encounter with them at other times of the year as they will come in for a brief look and then disappear off - unless you've a dead rabbit or two hanging under the drone .

I've had raptors come in and look at my drones on several occassions, but so far they've never attacked. It's quite nice to float around for a bit with a curious Red Kite

Should any bird harrass your drone, the best response is to climb straight up as high and as fast as you can, and to them move away quickly and return to a safe place to land near to you - if they see you near the drone as it's landing, they shouldn't continue to harass it as they'll see you as a bigger threat. When flying, birds can stoop down on to you when they have the height advantage, but they can't climb as fast as a drone can, and that gives you some time/space from them to get away! The fact that you gain the height advantage on them will also tend to make them more wary as their perception would then be that the drone would be in a position to stoop on them.

As we're coming up towards the start of nesting season, be a good neighbour to your birds and try not spook them, they're only trying to be good parents If they chase you once, OK not so much of a problem... but if they continually try to chase you away, then take the hint and find somewhere else to fly, or go a bit higher and leave them in peace

I have also found I am bothered much less by the feathered fliers since I attached High Viz tape to the arms of my Inspires.
They seem to associate the colour as something man-made (or so it seems) and either stay away out of fear or disinterest.
Either way it's not a placebo effect - it definitely works!

 

[bluelight.support]

I have also found I am bothered much less by the feathered fliers since I attached High Viz tape to the arms of my Inspires.

Do you have a pic - I'm looking at different hi-viz options also and would be curious to see how you did it ?

 

[gramshep]

Very interesting issue. I have lived in Eastbourne for many years and have only seen drones being flown once or twice in the area. Having now 'joined the club' I was on Beachy Head this morning, in complete and blissful ignorance of bye-laws and regs apertaining to BH and the Downs and in fact had spent an earlier evening flying 'on the other side of the road' both the drone and a battery heli. I am totally aware that ignorance of the law is no excuse, I had boned up on my CAA responsibility but never thought local.... It was only out of curiosity once I was home I checked to see if regs applied as there are NO signs anywhere to be seen that relate to "No Drones." (that and the lack of drones up there) There are also NO Signs that designate an Official take Off Area except for the parapenters. So, what pity as it is an awesome place to fly and so quiet at 7am... I will ask the council for clarification. As an earlier poster suggests, what about in the Crown Tide Gap??

 

[gramshep]

APOLOGIES. Having gone back and looked I see there are stickers on all the car park machines, including the one I parked next to!!! Should have gone to SpecSavers!!!

 

[Gareth]

Very interesting issue. I have lived in Eastbourne for many years and have only seen drones being flown once or twice in the area. Having now 'joined the club' I was on Beachy Head this morning, in complete and blissful ignorance of bye-laws and regs apertaining to BH and the Downs and in fact had spent an earlier evening flying 'on the other side of the road' both the drone and a battery heli. I am totally aware that ignorance of the law is no excuse, I had boned up on my CAA responsibility but never thought local.... It was only out of curiosity once I was home I checked to see if regs applied as there are NO signs anywhere to be seen that relate to "No Drones." (that and the lack of drones up there) There are also NO Signs that designate an Official take Off Area except for the parapenters. So, what pity as it is an awesome place to fly and so quiet at 7am... I will ask the council for clarification. As an earlier poster suggests, what about in the Crown Tide Gap??

Well, I hope you managed to get a definitive answer from the local Eastbourne council, they were totally oblivious about who I can talk to. Asked me to talk to the tourism board in the town.

 

[CBonFlyte]

OK, to make this a little clearer and to shed some light on why UAV's are banned in the area.
Firstly the council is an arse for posting up that bylaw and if they had given the real reason rather than spouting bylaw 18 people might actually take notice.

The reason for the ban is because Peregrine Falcons are known to nest in the area and they are a protected (and rare) bird.
Why the local council can't actually tell people this is beyond me.
Additionally the penalty for disturbing them is quite steep (up to £5,000 per offence)

Probably good you chose not to open your Inspire case.

Hope that helps.

This is not completely correct. An an SSSI area, it is an offence to bother any rare birds during nesting season. However that is NOT a blanket denial of flying rights. If you steer clear of nesting sites or fly outside of nesting season, there is nothing to stop you. Least of all an out-dated and invalid by-law.

It's all a matter of common sense. As drone pilots we get out best light early morning and late afternoon/evening. Happily this coincides with when B. Head is quieter.

I cannot imagine it is in the remit of the chaplaincy to make reports of drone flying. And as the police are low-fat even bother turning up following reports of illegal car racing across beachy head, or local hoons pulling doughnuts in the car park, I don't see them turning out for a report of someone flying a drone. Unless it is during periods such as Airborne, in which case a NOTAM will be in place to prevent such flying