Out of this world creepy GPS loss and signal loss...

[Donnie Frank]

Hey doods!

So this guy, Matthew, has been corresponding with me regarding his Inspire 1. He's running all the proper legacy Firmware:




When he gets to this one area, GPS drops out and then almost a complete signal loss:



Anywhere outside that oval and everything returns to normal.

Here's his video:

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For the life of me, I can't find anything that looks unusual in the area. Here are the coordinates for the epicenter of the signal loss:

33.918849, -117.985587

Any of you guys live in Whittier, CA? Maybe a second pair of eyes will see what I'm missing??? This has me very perplexed.

D

 

[niki]

It could be that someone living below is using gsm muffler. Somethink like those could do the job.
[US$95.99 31% OFF] N8 Handheld 8 Band GPS Anti Tracker CDMA GSM DCS 2G 3G 4G WIFI BD Various Hertz Country Customized GPS & Accessories from Automobiles & Motorcycles on banggood.com.

Just a reminder If the drone loose gps and connection at the same time for long enough to trigger the RTH then the drone cannot go back to home cause by the missing gps signal and it will land on the spot where it lost the signal.

 

[jpalamaro]

It could be that someone living below is using gsm muffler. Somethink like those could do the job.
[US$95.99 31% OFF] N8 Handheld 8 Band GPS Anti Tracker CDMA GSM DCS 2G 3G 4G WIFI BD Various Hertz Country Customized GPS & Accessories from Automobiles & Motorcycles on banggood.com.

Just a reminder If the drone loose gps and connection at the same time for long enough to trigger the RTH then the drone cannot go back to home cause by the missing gps signal and it will land on the spot where it lost the signal.

An interesting tidbit of info , that is, loss of GPS and connection at same time, loss of, 'lands on spot where it loss signal. A compelling enough reason to keep your drone in sight!

 

[Donnie Frank]

It could be that someone living below is using gsm muffler. Somethink like those could do the job.
[US$95.99 31% OFF] N8 Handheld 8 Band GPS Anti Tracker CDMA GSM DCS 2G 3G 4G WIFI BD Various Hertz Country Customized GPS & Accessories from Automobiles & Motorcycles on banggood.com.

Interesting device. While this seems plausible, the drone was @ 250' AGL, which is basically 4x the max range of the N8 (20 meters). BUT... At this point I'm exploring the possibility that the GPS loss might just be a peripheral symptom of the catastrophic AC/RC signal loss. While the N8 was obviously not between the drone and the satellites, there IS a chance that the N8 was between the AC and the RC. Very interesting.

Just a reminder If the drone loose gps and connection at the same time for long enough to trigger the RTH then the drone cannot go back to home cause by the missing gps signal and it will land on the spot where it lost the signal.

Well, despite Matthew conducting this experiment (flight path) several times, the drone never went into RTH. I know from experience that the drone "coasts" in ATTI mode. Based on the video, I speculate a tail wind, so it's possible the wind pushed the drone through the dead zone.

Thanx for the heads up on that device. I wonder if there is a more powerful base unit that someone might install permanently in their home? Hmmmm...

D

 

[Donnie Frank]

An interesting tidbit of info , that is, loss of GPS and connection at same time, loss of, 'lands on spot where it loss signal. A compelling enough reason to keep your drone in sight!

The loss happened about 420 feet from the launch site. So it was well in view.

D

 

[IronSky1]

I have had similiar issues on my I2. I had 14 sat at takeoff and 30secs later dropped to 4 and I2 went to OPTI mode I sent it home manually and cleared tree by a few feet collision avoidance worked fine no damage. I was able to duplicate on two different filghts. Isolated to metal in camera mount on top of GPS. If I used a GoPro Fusion or Max worked fine no issues (lot of plastic) if I mounted a GP with metal gimbal on top problem started.

I also expiereced a Phantom 2 flyaway (gone forever) however I beleive it had something to do with a 300ft FCC tower that is in my area . No way of knowing what they are transmitting/relaying there must be 100 anteneas on that mast.

Best to stay far way.

 

[Donnie Frank]

I have had similiar issues on my I2. I had 14 sat at takeoff and 30secs later dropped to 4 and I2 went to OPTI mode I sent it home manually and cleared tree by a few feet collision avoidance worked fine no damage. I was able to duplicate on two different filghts. Isolated to metal in camera mount on top of GPS.

First, absolutely any metal covering the GPS puck antenna will render it useless or at the very least, unreliable. Heck...you can cover the puck antenna with you HAND and the bird will lose most or all of its GPS signal.

Second, the issue described in this thread is to a specific AREA...NOT an installation issue.

If I used a GoPro Fusion or Max worked fine no issues (lot of plastic) if I mounted a GP with metal gimbal on top problem started.

I could've predicted that had I seen your setup.

I also expiereced a Phantom 2 flyaway (gone forever) however I beleive it had something to do with a 300ft FCC tower that is in my area . No way of knowing what they are transmitting/relaying there must be 100 anteneas on that mast.

Best to stay far way.

Yep.

D

 

[The Editor]

Hey doods!

So this guy, Matthew, has been corresponding with me regarding his Inspire 1. He's running all the proper legacy Firmware:

View attachment 28882


When he gets to this one area, GPS drops out and then almost a complete signal loss:

View attachment 28883

Anywhere outside that oval and everything returns to normal.

Here's his video:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

For the life of me, I can't find anything that looks unusual in the area. Here are the coordinates for the epicenter of the signal loss:

33.918849, -117.985587

Any of you guys live in Whittier, CA? Maybe a second pair of eyes will see what I'm missing??? This has me very perplexed.

D

What happens if you drive to the area? Does any in vehicle GPS device lose its marbles or is it only flight based loss of signal?

Any jamming device like posted would work omnidirectionally so would also knock out car GPS navigation systems.

I would guess this is a phenomenon that only occurs at altitude

 

[Donnie Frank]

What happens if you drive to the area? Does any in vehicle GPS device lose its marbles or is it only flight based loss of signal?

I don't live there. I kind of wish I did, as I have a really nice SkyPro™ GPS receiver that connects to my iPad via BlueTooth. This unit acquires satellites IN my car IN my garage. So it would be interesting to see if the SkyPro would get knocked out.

Any jamming device like posted would work omnidirectionally so would also knock out car GPS navigation systems.

Agreed.

I would guess this is a phenomenon that only occurs at altitude

I don't know. I wish I could test it.

D

 

[JimBinDallas]

Hey doods!

So this guy, Matthew, has been corresponding with me regarding his Inspire 1. He's running all the proper legacy Firmware:

View attachment 28882


When he gets to this one area, GPS drops out and then almost a complete signal

It could be that someone living below is using gsm muffler. Somethink like those could do the job.
[US$95.99 31% OFF] N8 Handheld 8 Band GPS Anti Tracker CDMA GSM DCS 2G 3G 4G WIFI BD Various Hertz Country Customized GPS & Accessories from Automobiles & Motorcycles on banggood.com.

Just a reminder If the drone loose gps and connection at the same time for long enough to trigger the RTH then the drone cannot go back to home cause by the missing gps signal and it will land on the spot where it lost the signal.

Active jamming of an aircraft navigational signal is illegal both with the FAA and FCC

 

[Donnie Frank]

Active jamming of an aircraft navigational signal is illegal both with the FAA and FCC

Interesting. I did not know that.

D

 

[niki]

There are many types of jammers out there, that everyone can buy legally. I've posted the first one that came out from a search in google.
They are omnidirectional as this is their purpose, to make a void around the owner. Most people bring such a devices in their pocket, other keep them in the car and of course there are in house versions. With ranges of up to a few hundred meters, they cannot be used activelly for jamming aircrafts as they usually do not fly at 200m altitude also the jammed frequencies are for radio communication including gps wich is the only nav sensor and manned aircraft will not fell down by missing radio or gps.
Those devices are primarly used to avoid been tracked by parasitic device that's mounted on your car or even killed by remotelly controlled explosive but for the seccond it's not so proof as explosion device can be set to ignite when signal with controller is lost.
The in house versions are more related to keep drones away rather than avoid being tracked. All polititians and crime bosses are using such a devices and not only

 

[The Editor]

There are many types of jammers out there, that everyone can buy legally. I've posted the first one that came out from a search in google.
They are omnidirectional as this is their purpose, to make a void around the owner. Most people bring such a devices in their pocket, other keep them in the car and of course there are in house versions. With ranges of up to a few hundred meters, they cannot be used activelly for jamming aircrafts as they usually do not fly at 200m altitude also the jammed frequencies are for radio communication including gps wich is the only nav sensor and manned aircraft will not fell down by missing radio or gps.
Those devices are primarly used to avoid been tracked by parasitic device that's mounted on your car or even killed by remotelly controlled explosive but for the seccond it's not so proof as explosion device can be set to ignite when signal with controller is lost.
The in house versions are more related to keep drones away rather than avoid being tracked. All polititians and crime bosses are using such a devices and not only

They may be legal in your country (although I doubt it since Sofia became part of the EU in 2007 and therefore would be party to The Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) Directive 2014/30/EU) but in the USA, UK etc the active jamming/blocking/interfering with communication, GPS, cellular signals is most definitely not legal. In fact it can land you with a huge fine and/or time in jail.
It is perfectly legal to purchase these items in some countries, but you may not USE them without getting into hot water...
That's the reason countries have bodies like the FCC (not FAA) and OFCOM etc who will allocate and control spectrums of frequencies as well as prosecute those that interfere with licenced communication transmissions.
The above is true with the exception of the military who have the ability to disrupt radio communication over a large area.

You watch too many spy movies.

 

[niki]

They may be legal in your country (although I doubt it since Sofia became part of the EU in 2007 and therefore would be party to The Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) Directive 2014/30/EU) but in the USA, UK etc the active jamming/blocking/interfering with communication, GPS, cellular signals is most definitely not legal. In fact it can land you with a huge fine and/or time in jail.
It is perfectly legal to purchase these items in some countries, but you may not USE them without getting into hot water...
That's the reason countries have bodies like the FCC (not FAA) and OFCOM etc who will allocate and control spectrums of frequencies as well as prosecute those that interfere with licenced communication transmissions.
The above is true with the exception of the military who have the ability to disrupt radio communication over a large area.

You watch too many spy movies.

While the emitting signal is within 250mw anyone can legally use it in EU. For stronger jammer you'll need certificate to operate it. This actually makes it pretty legal as iligal becomes only after a few more whats despite is it a jammer or simple radio link.

 

[The Editor]

While the emitting signal is within 250mw anyone can legally use it in EU. For stronger jammer you'll need certificate to operate it. This actually makes it pretty legal as iligal becomes only after a few more whats despite is it a jammer or simple radio link.

No they can't.
Can you please provide a link to where it says it is legal for an individual within the EU or any other country to use one of those things (or similar) to block, jam, interfere or alter a licenced communication frequency on any officially allocated RF spectrum.

In addition Navstar (GPS) is not the only 'nav sensor' as you put it. It is one constellation of navigational satellites - there are others, launched and controlled by other countries and available to everybody - although that is getting OT for this thread.

 

[Donnie Frank]

What I find interesting is, whatever it is, it's creating a GPS dead zone up to 400' AGL (hasn't been tested higher) within what appears to be a 150' or so radius.

This reminds me of those UFO shows where aviation instruments "go crazy." I can imagine if GPS is being blocked, there are probably other radio frequencies being blocked, as well. The drone never loses connection, so it's safe to say that microwaves are not being blocked. Satellites operate in lower bands; Roughly 1.2Ghz and 1.6Ghz. Makes me wish I were there so I could investigate further.

D

 

[niki]

No they can't.
Can you please provide a link to where it says it is legal for an individual within the EU or any other country to use one of those things (or similar) to block, jam, interfere or alter a licenced communication frequency on any officially allocated RF spectrum.

In addition Navstar (GPS) is not the only 'nav sensor' as you put it. It is one constellation of navigational satellites - there are others, launched and controlled by other countries and available to everybody - although that is getting OT for this thread.

The law for electronic communications in Bulgaria regulates the use of radio frequencies and emission power and their licensing. It says which frequency at what max power is free to use by the public or if it needs a license. While there is no jammer or anything related to it mentioned in the law there actually are a few places saying that everyone should operate his equipment in a way that they do not cause "Harmful Interference" and that's it, no jammers. And there is a description in the law about what is considered as "harmful" interference:

"Harmful interference" means interference which endangers the operation of a radio navigation service or other safety radio service or otherwise seriously impairs, impedes or repeatedly interrupts the operation of a radio service which operates in accordance with the applicable provisions of international, Community or national law.

So if one doesn't interrupt the work of any of the public or goverment comminications where "seriously impairs" means the scale of this harmful interference which should be "serious" for one to take bad consequences after using such a device or equipment. With a device that works with 10-20m of radius the scale of the harm to those agencies is far from serious (but this is a subject to debate as they can prove you are harmful in any case, if they want to. Actually that's why the laws are written this way).

The Bulgarian Communications Regulation Commission have a statement about their "position" on the use of jammers. And in short they say they are not happy with any of those but this statement is not backed by the law.

And according to that there are GPS jammers in the shops in Bulgaria, free to sell and buy. The same commission have the power to remove radio electronic products from the market that are not matching certain criteria listed in the law for electronic communications, so if those exist in the shops they are probably considered harmless for the public and goverment. I guess it's not only in our country like that.

 

[The Editor]

The law for electronic communications in Bulgaria regulates the use of radio frequencies and emission power and their licensing. It says which frequency at what max power is free to use by the public or if it needs a license. While there is no jammer or anything related to it mentioned in the law there actually are a few places saying that everyone should operate his equipment in a way that they do not cause "Harmful Interference" and that's it, no jammers. And there is a description in the law about what is considered as "harmful" interference:

"Harmful interference" means interference which endangers the operation of a radio navigation service or other safety radio service or otherwise seriously impairs, impedes or repeatedly interrupts the operation of a radio service which operates in accordance with the applicable provisions of international, Community or national law.

So if one doesn't interrupt the work of any of the public or goverment comminications where "seriously impairs" means the scale of this harmful interference which should be "serious" for one to take bad consequences after using such a device or equipment. With a device that works with 10-20m of radius the scale of the harm to those agencies is far from serious (but this is a subject to debate as they can prove you are harmful in any case, if they want to. Actually that's why the laws are written this way).

The Bulgarian Communications Regulation Commission have a statement about their "position" on the use of jammers. And in short they say they are not happy with any of those but this statement is not backed by the law.

And according to that there are GPS jammers in the shops in Bulgaria, free to sell and buy. The same commission have the power to remove radio electronic products from the market that are not matching certain criteria listed in the law for electronic communications, so if those exist in the shops they are probably considered harmless for the public and goverment. I guess it's not only in our country like that.

OK - you clearly do not understand the law or choose to interpret it in such a way it works to your advantage.

By your own quote (emphasis added)
Harmful interference" means interference which endangers the operation of a radio navigation service or other safety radio service or otherwise seriously impairs, impedes or repeatedly interrupts the operation of a radio service which operates in accordance with the applicable provisions of international, Community or national law.

Perhaps you could explain to me what a Radio/GPS jammer exactly does if it isn't imparing, impeding or interrupting the operation of a radio service which is operating under law/license.
In fact - a jammer is specifically designed to cause disruption and/or block reception of these signals in its operating envelope.
So no - they are not legal to use in your country which comes under European telecommunications treaties.
I have stated above, in some countries they are perfectly legal to sell and own but NOT to operate!

Understand your local and countries laws.

However - this is moot since we are talking about a GPS anomaly within the United States which without question has radio spectrums allocated, governed and enforced by the FCC and the use of jamming or interrupting devices in the USA is most definitely illegal.

 

[Donnie Frank]

What happens if you drive to the area? Does any in vehicle GPS device lose its marbles or is it only flight based loss of signal?

Matthew got back to me to tell me that he flew the same route with his Mavic Pro and gets nearly the same results. The Mavic Pro doesn't seem to drop out as bad (Maybe due to GLONASS acquisition?), but it DOES drop enough satellites to go into ATTI mode, albeit for only a couple seconds.

Interesting.

D

 

[hhung516]

Could be a jammer? He got another drone to try maybe use only 5.8G next time? It’s all consumer technology so pretty easy to jam if someone put his mind to it.

Hey doods!

So this guy, Matthew, has been corresponding with me regarding his Inspire 1. He's running all the proper legacy Firmware:

View attachment 28882


When he gets to this one area, GPS drops out and then almost a complete signal loss:

View attachment 28883

Anywhere outside that oval and everything returns to normal.

Here's his video:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

For the life of me, I can't find anything that looks unusual in the area. Here are the coordinates for the epicenter of the signal loss:

33.918849, -117.985587

Any of you guys live in Whittier, CA? Maybe a second pair of eyes will see what I'm missing??? This has me very perplexed.

D