Low flying light aircraft

[Dave Stanton]

I had a somewhat similar experience flying a couple of months ago. Was flying about 40-50 feet off the ground above two cranes lifting a huge chemical distillation stack off a river barge. We were working for the crane company getting video. I finished and landed. Then, not 30 seconds later a small, single engine private plane flew right over us maybe only 100 feet above. There was no airport or private landing strip anywhere close, I checked. The plane did not crash so that was not the reason. I have no idea why he would be flying that low in that industrial location. In fact, a little lower and he would have hit one of the 600 ton cranes. He was moving fast and came out of nowhere. Had I had my I1 in the air, I would have had no time to avoid him. So, who is the irresponsible pilot in this case?

 

[Soflms]

It's the Pelicans that worry me

 

[Gary E]

I have been flying for over 35 years and have more than 2,000 flight hours. I have flown aircrafts from 45mph to 180mph cruise speeds.
I am not sure about your pilot friend experience but I can assure you that most pilots including me, are not looking for drones or birds as we fly.

I have had several close calls with birds and a few with general aviation aircraft and in either case I never saw anything until it was very close to my airplane. In the case of the other aircraft, they never saw me either, as we found out later.

According to US FAA regulations, aircrafts can fly below 500ft over sparsely populated areas or over open water. I can also fly across the US without taking to anyone or under any type of control from AIr Traffic Control. So don't count on pilots seeing you, they won't!

I would also disagree with you that an Inspire or Phanton can not bring an aircraft down, or cause major damage. I for one had a cylinder nut go through my prop on a pusher aircraft and brake half of the prop, causing me to make an emergency landing. Fortunately nothing else happened. Something like an Inspire or Phantom hitting a control surface at 100mph, will definitely bring an aircraft down or a quadcopter going through a cockpit window can disable the pilot and cause a crash.

Although I am not too happy about the FAA regulating UAVs, the FAA has already stated that UAV must yield to manned aircraft. I for one would not test the courts, apply common sense and yield to every body! At the end of the day, I will go home with my Phantom.

I concur. At a cruising speed of 220 MPH in my high performance experimental (Lancair), I would not see something as small as a sUAV.

The aircraft might survive a wing, vertical tail, or horizontal tail leading edge hit, but a hit to a 2 or 3 blade prop would result in a "mayday" call. It only has to knock a very small chunk out of one blade (wood prop), or bend one blade slightly (metal prop) to cause an imbalance so severe that the resulting shake could tear the engine from it's engine mounts or from the aircraft, if the pilot doesn't get the engine shut down immediately.

When forming up for formation flying, pilots have a hard time finding the other aircraft even when they are only 1/4 mile a part. They would likely never see something as small as a sUAV.

I've had car lot Mylar balloons barely miss my wing tip while in the landing pattern. Never saw them until they were just an instant flash by out of the corner of my eye. Scared the 'bee gees' out of me.

No one should count on any aircraft maintaining an AGL altitude above 400 or 500 feet. Like the mantra for pilots of manned aircraft, "see and avoid", should be practiced at all times when operating a sUAV. And add "hear" to the "see and avoid" requirement, regardless of sUAV or manned aircraft altitudes.

 

[gogowanda]

I concur. At a cruising speed of 220 MPH in my high performance experimental (Lancair), I would not see something as small as a sUAV.

The aircraft might survive a wing, vertical tail, or horizontal tail leading edge hit, but a hit to a 2 or 3 blade prop would result in a "mayday" call. It only has to knock a very small chunk out of one blade (wood prop), or bend one blade slightly (metal prop) to cause an imbalance so severe that the resulting shake could tear the engine from it's engine mounts or from the aircraft, if the pilot doesn't get the engine shut down immediately.

When forming up for formation flying, pilots have a hard time finding the other aircraft even when they are only 1/4 mile a part. They would likely never see something as small as a sUAV.

I've had lost car lot Mylar balloons barely miss my wing tip while in the landing pattern. Never saw them until they were just an instant flash by out of the corner of my eye. Scared the 'bee gees' out of me.

No one should count on any aircraft maintaining an AGL altitude above 400 or 500 feet. Like the mantra for pilots of manned aircraft, "see and avoid", should be practiced at all times when operating a sUAV. And add "hear" to the "see and avoid" requirement, regardless of sUAV or manned aircraft altitudes.

Oh I hate you...Lancair...I fly a little Cessna 150 cruising around 85~90 kts and no I never actively look for birds or drones.
If I got a hit it's my luck, if i didn't get a hit, still my luck.
If I hear single engine coming I'll just lower my drone.
If the plane is just 100 ft off the ground chances are he will hit something else before he hit my drone.

 

[Gary E]

Oh I hate you...Lancair...I fly a little Cessna 150 cruising around 85~90 kts and no I never actively look for birds or drones.
If I got a hit it's my luck, if i didn't get a hit, still my luck.
If I hear single engine coming I'll just lower my drone.
If the plane is just 100 ft off the ground chances are he will hit something else before he hit my drone.

Roger that!

If I hear an aircraft engine, down goes the quad, then look for the incoming direction. Like you say, low chance of 100' AGL flyers, but we've all been known to go there in certain situations (a low pass, but not "buzzing"), in rural or remote areas of course. Here in Oregon, we have a lot of that kind of area.

Safe flying to all, no matter what it is.

 

[IrishSights]

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not advocating unsafe drone flight practices or saying it will do zero damage and people should fly drones wherever they want without a care in the world by any means.

Common sense when flying should be used by both plane and drone pilots and safety should be a concern, there is no doubt some damage will occur to plane and the drone would be annihilated if there was a collision and neither pilot wants that.

I'm only saying everyone is losing their minds and seems to think a drone flying within a half mile of a plane will cause it to explode and kill everyone in a ten mile radius and that's ridiculous, there is zero evidence to support their opinions.

Many pilots besides my friend are on record saying it's a virtual non issue. They have hit birds and know what happens as a result and they realize the mass density factor. No offense but I'm inclined to believe pilots with experience who know what they are talking about over you who had no clue and is just regurgitating drone slandering propaganda he's heard from commercial pilots trying to block drones from taking over their extremely high paying filming from the air jobs. Drones will destroy that job market, its unstoppable though they tried their best.

There have been zero such collisions to date and zero evidence to support a drone taking down a plane. If you compare the mass density between a bird that planes hit with no issues over 11,000 times a year to a plastic drone you will see that the drone actually has less and as a result would have less damage causing force upon impact vs a bird because most of the drone is hollow plastic and would easily break and deflect. If a drone was solid steel the results would be very different, but it's size and damage causing potential is very misleading if you understand physics.

Like you point out the battery is the largest solid part of a drone and basically the only part that would do anything more than scratch the paint. There is a small chance that a perfectly placed strike on the windscreen would cause a crash scenario but the odds a plane/drone collision resulting in a plane crash are very small is all I'm saying. It's not gonna take out a prop or a jet engine.

The fact of the matter is drones are here to stay and have been assigned airspace up to 400 feet where they can fly. If you fly small aircraft in this airspace other than when taking off or landing then you should be aware of the risks by now and are just as responsible for any collision that occurs as the drone pilot. If not even more so due to the fact drones have limited speed and won't be able to take evasive action very well if a plane comes out of nowhere or a novice pilot isn't paying attention but it's pretty hard to blame the drone pilot who's flying where he's supposed to be if it hits a small plane who's flying out of its designated airspace in my opinion. Always use common sense and fly safe.

@SultanGris, I thought you might be interested in this article about a simulated drone impact on a passenger aircraft sized engine.

It's only a simulation but it demonstrates catastrophic engine failure.

We can't ignore tests like this.

Personal Drones Getting Sucked into Jet Engines Could Be Disastrous > ENGINEERING.com

 

[Joola]

@SultanGris
We can't ignore tests like this.

Personal Drones Getting Sucked into Jet Engines Could Be Disastrous > ENGINEERING.com

It's nice to see a little science amongst all the speculation. This simulation is by no means definitive but there's no way I'll be caught saying a drone can't damage an airplane until it's tested in a real world scenario.

Something like this would be nice to see tested with a drone.

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[Gary E]

This video show the loss of a prop blade on a Lancair back in 1991. The pilot was expert in getting the engine shut down immediately and making an emergency safe landing. It is noted that the event occurred right over the airport. Note all of the engine and cowl debris that departs and the remaining debris just above instrument panel at the bottom of the wind screen. One item clearly seen there is a engine oil hydraulic line.

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[Machoman]

The very last thing a pilot will be looking for is these miniature drones which are almost invisible to them at 100+ mph, they are looking for other full size traffic.

Then they should only be allowed to fly at speeds where they can see them. They have to expect a drone anywhere when they fly below 400ft so they must fly safe and in a speed to see them and the drone has time enough to react and evade.

 

[The Editor]

Then they should only be allowed to fly at speeds where they can see them. They have to expect a drone anywhere when they fly below 400ft so they must fly safe and in a speed to see them and the drone has time enough to react and evade.

That has to be one of the most idiotic statements you or anyone has made on these forums.
Unbelievable.

 

[Machoman]

Any manned aircraft flying illegally below allowed altitude should be photographed reported and pilots license revoked for more safety for all. Then they cannot crash in a drone they cannot see because they are too fast flying in an airspace they are not even allowed and cause death and damages to the area where they will crash into after hitting the drone.

 

[Joola]

Any manned aircraft flying illegally below allowed altitude should be photographed reported and pilots license revoked for more safety for all. Then they cannot crash in a drone they cannot see because they are too fast flying in an airspace they are not even allowed and cause death and damages to the area where they will crash into after hitting the drone.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Manned aircraft are allowed to fly below 500ft under several circumstances. Don't be so entitled to think everyone else needs to change because you've arrived. Integration doesn't imply one side bares all responsibility. Both sides will need to adapt.

 

[Machoman]

That has to be one of the most idiotic statements you or anyone has made on these forums.
Unbelievable.

Ok explain why. Millions of drones sold which are allowed to fly 400ft (or higher depending on country) everywhere and manned aircraft pilots should be allowed to fly faster that they can see them in this airspace where they are a) not allowed to fly or b) have an exemption but no drone can know this? The manned aircraft has to be aware that there may be dozen of drones in this airspace and cannot just fly irresponsible fast there.

I said not faster then the drone can react and evade. So whats idiotic with this?

 

[The Editor]

Any manned aircraft flying illegally below allowed altitude should be photographed reported and pilots license revoked for more safety for all. Then they cannot crash in a drone they cannot see because they are too fast flying in an airspace they are not even allowed and cause death and damages to the area where they will crash into after hitting the drone.

You are only showing your ignorance of airspace and a total lack of understanding of aviation regulation and law by making a comment like that.
Aircraft carrying souls will ALWAYS take precedence over UAV's.
So, are you suggesting that in the video I posted in post #15 of this thread:
1. The pilots shouldn't be going that fast?
2. Shouldn't be flying that low?
3. Should be looking out for UAV's and would be able to avoid one flying at 450knots?

Additionally, military will often fly down to 100 feet - is that illegal?

 

[The Editor]

Ok explain why. Millions of drones sold which are allowed to fly 400ft (or higher depending on country) everywhere and manned aircraft pilots should be allowed to fly faster that they can see them in this airspace where they are a) not allowed to fly or b) have an exemption but no drone can know this? The manned aircraft has to be aware that there may be dozen of drones in this airspace and cannot just fly irresponsible fast there.

I said not faster then the drone can react and evade. So whats idiotic with this?

I refer you to my post #54 above.

 

[Machoman]

Additionally, military will often fly down to 100 feet - is that illegal?

Its said they often do this without allowance. This will probably be discussed when the first military lowflyer gets a drone visit in his cockpit. However these military planes can normally be heared from far while some small planes can just appear over the trees and not be heared before.

And even if you see the plane and your drone 400m away from you together tell me how you will see if you are below or above the plane and how far it is away. How will you see in which direction to fly?if they are really in similar altitude? Fly down? What if it turns out the aircraft has been just 10m below then...............you see this in 5 seconds on 4-500m ?

Maybe in England there are not so many dense woods around its easier to see planes but in many countries you will not see aircraft or helicopters before a few seconds they may collide. If they fly low they will just appear over the trees. If they are so fast then that they cannot see the drone - though they could in their LOS - then it may be a problem.

PS: Seen your video. These planes can be heared from far, this is common in switzerland but there is time enough to react.

 

[The Editor]

Its said they often do this without allowance. This will probably be discussed when the first military lowflyer gets a drone visit in his cockpit. However these military planes can normally be heared from far while some small planes can just appear over the trees and not be heared before.

And even if you see the plane and your drone 400m away from you together tell me how you will see if you are below or above the plane and how far it is away. How will you see in which direction to fly?if they are really in similar altitude? Fly down? What if it turns out the aircraft has been just 10m below then...............you see this in 5 seconds on 4-500m ?

Maybe in England there are not so many dense woods around its easier to see planes but in many countries you will not see aircraft or helicopters before a few seconds they may collide. If they fly low they will just appear over the trees. If they are so fast then that they cannot see the drone - though they could in their LOS - then it may be a problem.

Again, I'm afraid you are showing your ignorance of air law/segregation.
Helicopters can operate from surface to their operational ceiling.
I would quit now, before you dig your hole any deeper.....

 

[Machoman]

Helicopters can operate from surface to their operational ceiling.

In the last few weeks I have seen a dozen planes and helicopters all flying below their allowed altitude and sure not for emergency cases or exemptions. They just like to fly low and dont care too much about their airspace because they are not used there can be something to hit. Drones are still something new no matter from where I start people stopping their cars and making pictures or behave like they see a UFO and ask questions.

 

[The Editor]

In the last few weeks I have seen a dozen planes and helicopters all flying below their allowed altitude and sure not for emergency cases or exemptions. They just like to fly low and dont care too much about their airspace because they are not used there can be something to hit. Drones are still something new no matter from where I start people stopping their cars and making pictures or behave like they see a UFO and ask questions.

Well, I hope you are photographing them all and reporting them all and keeping them all logged in your excel spreadsheet of illegal low flying aircraft.
Pass it over to the authorities and maybe all those pilots will get thrown in Guantanamo Bay!

 

[Gary E]

In the last few weeks I have seen a dozen planes and helicopters all flying below their allowed altitude and sure not for emergency cases or exemptions. They just like to fly low and dont care too much about their airspace because they are not used there can be something to hit. Drones are still something new no matter from where I start people stopping their cars and making pictures or behave like they see a UFO and ask questions.

Wow!

What is "their allowed altitude"? Your info doesn't indicate what country you reside in.