Stopping motors in the air

[RaptorMan]

I descend with 100% down-stick often and for long periods and it NEVER turns off the motors.


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Yeah, the idea I had that started this thread is that if you were to do a rapid descending spiral with both sticks back and to the inside this would initiate the CSC event and stop the motors AND it's my opinion that a maneuver like that is not out of the question as there are situations in the real world where pilots are instructed to perform a similar descent in war zones.

The idea that many pilots would have the presence of mind in a situation of a failure to perform a CSC to somehow make things safer -- utter nonsense! Expecting a pilot to react instantly and then still require a couple seconds for the delay before the CSC actually takes effect -- who actually thinks that's a viable solution.

And the idea that this is something that should be done on the ground in an emergency also makes no sense as you still have the 2 second delay.

What we should have is an actual kill button on the remote. You lift the cover that protects against accidental activation and then press the button and you have INSTANT power off. No two second delay either in the air or on the ground.

Of course that's not something that could be easily implemented on existing remotes but like the focus control it could be attached and added to the existing remotes with the idea that future remotes would put the kill button on the remote. If I could recommend I'd put the kill button in the middle bottom of the remote below the power and landing gear buttons/levers.


Brian

 

[Kilrah]

What we should have is an actual kill button on the remote. You lift the cover that protects against accidental activation and then press the button and you have INSTANT power off. No two second delay either in the air or on the ground.

The 1-2 second delay would be there too, just implemented differently - aka letting go of the sticks, lifting the cover and pressing the button...

 

[RaptorMan]

The 1-2 second delay would be there too, just implemented differently - aka letting go of the sticks, lifting the cover and pressing the button...

Why would there have to be a 1-2 second delay if a kill button were implemented? This is all firmware driven and the firmware could be changed to make killing power instantaneous.


Brian

 

[Tj_]

Why would there have to be a 1-2 second delay if a kill button were implemented? This is all firmware driven and the firmware could be changed to make killing power instantaneous.


Brian

I don't believe he means there will be a 1 to 2 second delay after pushing the switch. The 2 second delay is the time it takes to let go of controls, flip the cover, and push the button.

 

[RaptorMan]

I don't believe he means there will be a 1 to 2 second delay after pushing the switch. The 2 second delay is the time it takes to let go of controls, flip the cover, and push the button.

There are a number of delays at work here and reaction time shouldn't be figured into the equipment delays. Yes, reaction time is important, but if we assume a 1 second reaction time then with the current system we'd be looking at more like 3 seconds to stop the motors: 1 second reaction time plus 2 seconds CSC delay. With a kill button you'd still have the reaction time, but the actual time from there could well be as little as a quarter second and certainly less than 1 second.

So, ultimately, a kill button would be a faster solution AND safer in that it would nearly eliminate unintentionally killing the motors. I wouldn't say it would be 100% safer as idiots can be pretty creative in the way they display there idiocy!


Brian

 

[Tj_]

There are a number of delays at work here and reaction time shouldn't be figured into the equipment delays. Yes, reaction time is important, but if we assume a 1 second reaction time then with the current system we'd be looking at more like 3 seconds to stop the motors: 1 second reaction time plus 2 seconds CSC delay. With a kill button you'd still have the reaction time, but the actual time from there could well be as little as a quarter second and certainly less than 1 second.

So, ultimately, a kill button would be a faster solution AND safer in that it would nearly eliminate unintentionally killing the motors. I wouldn't say it would be 100% safer as idiots can be pretty creative in the way they display there idiocy!


Brian

I concur!

 

[lake_flyer]

There is no delay with CSC. It's instant, the moment both sticks are in the CSC position, the motors are shut off. Don't mess this up with spooling down time of the props, which could take a second. The engines are shut down instantly.

 

[lake_flyer]

Yeah, the idea I had that started this thread is that if you were to do a rapid descending spiral with both sticks back and to the inside this would initiate the CSC event and stop the motors AND it's my opinion that a maneuver like that is not out of the question as there are situations in the real world where pilots are instructed to perform a similar descent in war zones.

Let me see,
so you think that there are flight patterns that need the craft to pitch full left while pitching full backwards, and at the same time descend at maximum speed while spinning clockwise like a mad man?
We're talking multirotors here.
It's totally not realistic. If you don't believe me, get a hubsan or other small manual drone and try it.

Manned craft pilots don't have CSC. They have a yoke, rudder pedals, elevator and throttle. And even then, to emulate a CSC you have to move the controls in their most extreme positions, rudder all the way to the right, ailerons all the way to the left, throttle at zero, and oh yes, the elevator max up. Stall...CRASH....and burn....

Combat flying is al about managing your power envelope. Shutting down the throttle while giving full elevator up is hardly a good way to stay alive in a dogfight or while under ground fire. Banking and yawing at that same time without power would even make it more ridiculous.

CSC is here to stay, and it has been said in multiple discussions before, and explained by people who know their stuff.

 

[RaptorMan]

The rapid downward spiral of which I talk about in war zones is not limited to fighter planes but is also done by large commercial and cargo aircraft. The idea is to limit the approach time and to do it mostly over the airfield so that a bad guy with a manpad will have less chance of firing within range. An airbase has controlled space around the base, but it's impossible to completely control the area a few miles from the hamerhead so this landing method was developed to make sure that most of the approach takes place within the controlled area.

So, this IS a flight maneuver that IS done in the real world and that's a fact!

When the left stick is back and to the right the AC will descend and rotate to the right (CW from above). When the right stick is back and to the left the AC will move backwards and to the left. When both sticks are like this the AC will descend rapidly while rotating CW and moving in a descending clockwise corkscrew I do believe and this would be a possible way to achieve the war zone maneuver mentioned above.

There is obviously some confusion with the two methods listed to turn the motors off. Method 2 as described in the manual requires pulling the left stick back and holding for 3 seconds whereas Method 1 says to pull left stick back then perform CSC at which point the motors stop immediately. So the CSC action can produce nearly instantaneous stoppage of the motors.

But, the idea of having the method for stopping the motors be tied to the operation of primary flight controls is shear lunacy and that to is a fact!


Brian

 

[Kilrah]

With a kill button you'd still have the reaction time

I'm not talking of straight reaction time, but the time it takes to execute the action. Pushing in 2 sticks you're already holding and in active control of is necessarily faster than having to let go of them, remember where the kill button is, maybe change the way you're holding the radio to get to it, manage to grasp and open the cover, then push the button.

We flew a Freefly Alta for a project last week, and they take the opposite approach to DJI regarding disarming - they have a "disarming prevention switch" that you're supposed to turn on in flight, then when you land you have to both turn that off, switch control mode to manual, and only then can you stop the motors/disarm it. 2 of the 3 pilots we had would need 5-10 seconds after each landing to remember how this works and manage to stop the motors. Now that was in normal ops, now imagine if something goes wrong. To me that's just as, if not more dangerous. Not in the same circumstances for sure, but you're trading a risk in something that has a very small probability of happening (wrong manueuver in flight) for one that presents itself on every single flight.

 

[RaptorMan]

The disarming prevention switch sounds like a good idea, but once again you're still using the primary flight controls to do the actual killing of power. If you neglect to disarm then you're right back to the same liability. And, if you are flying and you do have to kill it you would have to rearm then CSC.

No, the killing action must NOT use the primary flight controls EVER!

I mean, how friggin difficult is it to have a kill switch on the remote as I indicated before. And, I'd use that to turn motors off when on the ground as the normal way to do this -- in that way you develop the muscle memory for doing so. As an additional preventive measure I'd have the remote beep when the spring loaded cover over the kill button is lifted as a final reminder.

The best position I think would be in the center of the remote (right left) and mid way between the power button/landing gear switches and the connection and battery status indicators. In that position and with muscle memory from normal power off you should be able to complete the operation just as quickly as the CSC without using the primary flight controls yet still be enough removed from the sticks to reduce inadvertent operation.


Brian

 

[Kilrah]

No, the killing action must NOT use the primary flight controls EVER!

But why??
I've been flying multirotors since 2007 and every flight controller I've used works that way, and it's never been a problem...

 

[Baron1964]

The disarming prevention switch sounds like a good idea, but...again you're still using the primary flight controls to do the actual killing of power. If you neglect to disarm then you're right back to the same liability. And, if you are flying and you do have to kill it you would have to rearm then CSC.

No, the killing action must NOT...


Brian

RaptorMan,

Many of us have had the same concerns when we started piloting responsibly. The fact that you're asking this question before you own a drone is showing that hopefully, your doing your homework and research before you attempt a CSC!! Good on you!!

Keep asking questions:

Personally, I have found very little use , if any at all to executing a maneuver that even comes close to a CSC. When you do purchase , please use the flight simulator included and see what that stick combo will do wrt flight performance - direction and speed. No practical need for this.

Either way, soon you will adapt to this safety feature with experience. It will become second nature with enough practice.

Regards





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[RaptorMan]

RaptorMan,

Many of us have had the same concerns when we started piloting responsibly. The fact that you're asking this question before you own a drone is showing that hopefully, your doing your homework and research before you attempt a CSC!! Good on you!!

Keep asking questions:

Personally, I have found very little use , if any at all to executing a maneuver that even comes close to a CSC. When you do purchase , please use the flight simulator included and see what that stick combo will do wrt flight performance - direction and speed. No practical need for this.

Either way, soon you will adapt to this safety feature with experience. It will become second nature with enough practice.

Regards





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm not planning to do any such maneuver either but my issue is really one that speaks to the logic of this. The fact that you can destroy your many thousand dollar drone AND risk hurting or even killing someone by killing power by accident and having 7 pounds fall one someones head from a couple hundred feet is insanity.

When a fighter pilot has to punch out he doesn't hit the eject button on the stick or throttle or push either in a set pattern, instead he either reaches up or down to pull a dedicated eject lever/handle. The US government isn't going to be happy replacing a $75M AC because the pilot accidentally trigger an ejection while operating the primary flight controls.

The fact that others have used the CSC technique for a long time doesn't make it any wiser.

I've not been around this long enough to know for sure but this feels like the kind of thing that almost made sense when it was a tiny toy, but now that we're talking multi-thousand dollar tools weighing 7+ pounds and potentially falling 400 feet onto someone -- well the time has come to rethink this idiocy...


Brian

 

[The Editor]

I'm not planning to do any such maneuver either but my issue is really one that speaks to the logic of this. The fact that you can destroy your many thousand dollar drone AND risk hurting or even killing someone by killing power by accident and having 7 pounds fall one someones head from a couple hundred feet is insanity.

When a fighter pilot has to punch out he doesn't hit the eject button on the stick or throttle or push either in a set pattern, instead he either reaches up or down to pull a dedicated eject lever/handle. The US government isn't going to be happy replacing a $75M AC because the pilot accidentally trigger an ejection while operating the primary flight controls.

The fact that others have used the CSC technique for a long time doesn't make it any wiser.

I've not been around this long enough to know for sure but this feels like the kind of thing that almost made sense when it was a tiny toy, but now that we're talking multi-thousand dollar tools weighing 7+ pounds and potentially falling 400 feet onto someone -- well the time has come to rethink this idiocy...


Brian

Brian - this has been debated many many times on the forum for good, for bad, for ugly.
The CSC command has been there since the inception of DJI flight controllers and it will not be changed - its here to stay.
Could we now please move on?

Thank you.

 

[The Shadow]

0I have to admit when I first had my Phantom1, I was on maybe my 3rd flight and the Phantom was about 20 feet up and began to haul *** on its own away from me towards heavy trees. I shut the motors down and it crashed in some heavy grass before plowing into the trees. Never figured out what happened, maybe compass cal? Anyway it did save the drone. I doubt Now I would ever consider shutting down again! The Inspire 1 is not as forgiving when crashing to the ground and very expensive. Those early days I learned the hard way and now pre flight checks are a must every time I fly. This field is so unique as every day new technology is introduced, thank god the forum here is available for learning and garnering experiences of others. If I had this forum when I first started maybe I wouldn't of had to of chopped down a tree to retrieve my Phantom 1, those were interesting days. Oh, that was the last tree I ever cut down (the wife made sure of that)!
Is there a full proof way to know your batteries are good? Is the DJI go app battery check page reliable?

 

[FlyHighUSA]

Yep didn't think of that, great thought. I'm waiting to here from DJI to see what the data says. Thanks Editor

 

[jon b]

I descend with 100% down-stick often and for long periods and it NEVER turns off the motors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1

 

[Steve@AerialImagesPro]

Yeah, the idea I had that started this thread is that if you were to do a rapid descending spiral with both sticks back and to the inside this would initiate the CSC event and stop the motors AND it's my opinion that a maneuver like that is not out of the question as there are situations in the real world where pilots are instructed to perform a similar descent in war zones.

The idea that many pilots would have the presence of mind in a situation of a failure to perform a CSC to somehow make things safer -- utter nonsense! Expecting a pilot to react instantly and then still require a couple seconds for the delay before the CSC actually takes effect -- who actually thinks that's a viable solution.

And the idea that this is something that should be done on the ground in an emergency also makes no sense as you still have the 2 second delay.

What we should have is an actual kill button on the remote. You lift the cover that protects against accidental activation and then press the button and you have INSTANT power off. No two second delay either in the air or on the ground.

Of course that's not something that could be easily implemented on existing remotes but like the focus control it could be attached and added to the existing remotes with the idea that future remotes would put the kill button on the remote. If I could recommend I'd put the kill button in the middle bottom of the remote below the power and landing gear buttons/levers.


Brian

No pilot in the history of aviation has EVER been instructed to perform a maneuver that would result in a flat spin in a fixed wing aircraft, or a vortex ring state in a rotor wing of any kind. You're spouting a ridiculous scenario in real scenario, war zone or not. As a matter of fact that control position is rarely used in R/C 3D maneuvers.

This is nothing but a troll post. This guy is looking to buy an inspire 1 as his first drone and worried about the csc position?

I asked because although I'm still waiting to get my first drone I've been reading up and looking at videos to acquaint myself and I guess the idea that a maneuver like that could cause the drone to drop from the sky and possibly fall on someone or some thing just doesn't seem reasonable.. What's the logic behind this in the first place?

In war zones the pilots are often told to do a rapid descending spiral to land instead of the normal approach as it reduces the opportunity for bad guys to shoot at the plane. So clearly, a rapid downward spiral isn't an unheard of move in the real world.


Brian

That control movement does not result in a spiral descent, it WILL result in crashing the quad even if CSC was not used. So feel free.

 

[ringolong]

Tested the full throttle down this morning and it was fine. Thanks for letting me know!