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No Limit Dronesz

Discussion in 'Inspire 2 Discussion' started by Kornbert, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. Kornbert

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    Hey guys,

    ( the NDL pretends having develloped a software which is capabale to overturn the limits determined by DJI thru the assistent and DJI Go and to adjust new parameters)

    I thought it might be a good idea to check out the NLD . 24 $ is not that much but a little risc of bricking the bird remains. Ok, I decided to try . Everything seems to be working like discribed in the NLD manual, but flashing the firmware to the required one did not work out properly so I sent a mail.

    In brief a playback of the correspondence:

    I should send a screen from the error - so I did.
    I was told to use the right DJI assistent ( what I did already)
    So, again I sent appropriate sreens - the answer was again it should be a mistake of using the right assistent.
    ( there are basicly 2 of them, one is needed to run the NLD client, the other is the official 1.2.4 DJI assistent which shows the current firmware)

    A screen recording of the entire processing was made and sent ( here in it started becomming absurd)
    I didn`t have flashed the firmware properly what is easily proved by looking at the firmware which has a "-" at the end, furthermore this: you ( me) can see in your screen videos. ( absolutly nonsense, a "-" doesn`t exist) if it remains after flashing again I should contact DJI.....

    Sending 3 times sreens of the pretended ( not existing) "-" ( I already felt beeing kidded)

    In order to shorten up the hole thing I recieved a mail telling that the NLD firmware manager is beeing updated I should try again after this and sending sreens of possible errors.

    Maybe one of you fellows might send a mail to NLD asking about the ominous "-" at the end of the displayed firmware in the DJI assitent.

    I don`t know if the NLD is just a hoax . A does anyone in here has experience with NLD?
     
  2. Mark Titcombe

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    I'd never heard of this, I've just taken a look at their website and personally I would stay well away from it. Applying pirate firmware to your I2 sounds like madness to me, who is responsible if the firmware bricks the aircraft?

    Mark
     
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  3. Drone_Video

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    No need to wonder who absorbs the cost in the case. The owner of the inspire burdens that!
     
  4. The Editor

    The Editor Moderator
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    Modifying proprietary firmware is not condoned or endorsed.
    Furthermore any commercial operators should steer clear since as soon as you load non manufacturer code into your aircraft you will have both invalidated your warranty and your insurance coverage.
    The expression "wouldn't touch it with a barge pole" springs to mind.
     
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  5. Kornbert

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    Yes, retrospectively quite a bit careless trying a modifyed firmware but good luck the bird has not gotten damaged.
     
  6. Dave Pitman

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    You guys must be living under a rock.

    DJI Dashboard - Modding tips, tricks and results - OFFICIAL THREAD - RC Groups

    I'm calling Horsefeathers without an official source. That would be FAA for me in the US. I can't speak for other countries but I would still like to see an official source if that is the rule where you operate. There is certainly nothing special about DJI's or Yuneec's or __'s firmware. You're not allowed to just pull a statement like that out of the air and call it fact without citation.
     
    #6 Dave Pitman, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  7. The Editor

    The Editor Moderator
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    Speak to your insurance company.
    The same way that car insurance will be restrictive or void if you have altered your vehicle or modified it's engine management system to operate outside of manufacturers specification the same is true more so when it comes to aviation cover.
    Or speak to the FAA and tell them "Hey, I operate commercially under 107 and I've modified my aircraft to get round some of the manufacturers design limitations - is that all OK?"

    When you say there is nothing special about DJI/Yuneec firmware - it's what keeps your UAV in the air (via the flight controller) so I would say it's fairly fundamental to the stability of the aircraft.

    But hey - it's your aircraft, your 107 certification, your business, so fill your boots.
     
  8. Dave Pitman

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    What is and is not permitted is specified in the regulations (CFR 14.107). There is no mention of modification of any kind either for or against. Ultimately the operator is responsible. If you (as the operator) cause a problem that results in an incident, you will be responsible. You will be responsible regardless if you modified the aircraft in any way or if it is stock. Your statement that modifying the aircraft (including software) is inherently and by itself illegal or against some regulation is false. Perhaps someday that will change.

    What I meant about the manufactures software not being anything special is that they make plenty of mistakes. They will have to up their game considerably if flight software ever needs to meet any certification.

    As far as what you guys are calling "hacks". If you understood the firmware and how it is being modified, you would find that these are just parameters programmed by DJI and hidden from the user. You are adjusting elements and turning them on and off just as you do from within the Go app, only you have to know how it's done because DJI has not exposed them in Go. Is it possible that you can make a change that will then cause an unexpected or "bad" flight characteristic? Sure, it's possible. But if you understand what you are changing and test it thoroughly, there is no difference than adjusting the expo or the braking.

    My point here is not to tell anyone "they" should modify the stock settings on their aircraft. Just to point out that railing against what is not understood is not appropriate either. I'm just trying to educate.

    Cheers!
     
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  9. slim.slamma

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  10. The Editor

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    Perhaps you could point me to where in my posts I said it was illegal?
    I see you have remained silent on the insurance aspect?
     
  11. Kornbert

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    I don`t think he feels superior, he is just clarifying an issue which seems to be not understood very well by my many people.
     
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  12. Dave Pitman

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    I'm sorry, you are correct, you didn't say illegal.

    Insurance wise it's the same deal. If user modification is listed as an exclusion in your policy then yes. It is not listed in my policy . Can you share the language in your policy with the exclusion as I have yet to see it.

    Further, there are examples of Mavic owners gaining root access to their craft (far beyond parameter changes) and afterwards receiving warranty service for something on the craft not related (hardware).

    As @Kombert said, I'm just sharing what I know. Everyone is free to take it or leave it.

    I personally have disabled GEO on all my craft because it is not needed and introduces a possible fail point in my work and provides no benefit. It is not required or endorsed by the FAA so it is a simple choice for me.
     
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  13. Dave Pitman

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  14. FlyaDrone

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    This is a very valid topic worthy of more research on all topics introduced and should not at all devolve into a urinating match between participants. Most suspect is interpretation of legal documents as I am sure most of us are not legally experienced enough to make authoritarian statements either way. So respect of others OPINIONS is encouraged.

    One point that I would like to present is that It is legal to fly H520 without GEO Fencing so why would it become illegal to fly DJI aircraft without GEO Fencing enabled? I also support the concept that this NDL package is not a rebuild or insertion of new modules that require you to recompile the DJI firmware. Rather it enables existing DJI parameters to be able to be adjusted versus being disabled by DJI. In fact I know of another VERY experienced pilot that attempted numerous times to perform this NLD mod and also came away without bricking the machine.

    In fact the NLD team consists of VERY competent software experts with years of development experience, if they did not know what they were doing then these aircraft would have been bricked. One of the strongest incentives to entertain this mod is precisely what has been stated above - DJI OFTEN BREAKS their own firmware. For example....anyone hear trying to live with the unplanned gimbal movements resulting from the most recent upgrade? This affects both the Inspire 2 and M200 running an X5S for sure and maybe the X4S and X7 as well.

    So let us all take a breath and keep analyzing all of the different aspect discussed above. For instance if you are running Litchi and crash your aircraft will DJI Care/Refresh replace your machine and camera? Seems like an apple to apples comparison to me if you use NLD to access parameters that are factory hidden. I believe that Litchi probably does more to alter the firmware than NLD but that is my opinion not necessarily fact. So what I witnessed is us members standing tall on our opinions versus the rest of us realizing that we are presenting our own opinions as proof to dispute someone's opposing opinion. I am guilty of this more times than I care to admit.

    There is inherent problems with trying to nail down specific descriptions in the FAA part 107 LAW. Much of it's verbiage is loose and open for lawyers to interpret, both the fed lawyers and yours if you ever need one. Very little existing drone law precedent available so we are all involved with an evolutionary phase of setting drone law standards.

    This thread has the ability to teach us all different approaches to having more capability in flying our aircraft. Yes anyone who chooses to mod these parameters must either know what they are doing or suffer the consequences.

    Hey let us all try to figure out for ourselves what options we might seek in keeping our DJI issued firmware working. Unplanned gimbal action is much less a problem than a flyaway, but I guarantee that not long ago people were looking for fixes to that type of an issue and would gladly have loaded the NLD app if it fixed that problem, I am just saying, fuel for thought.
     
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  15. Kornbert

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    Maybe it`s better fo leave this point of discussion about legal issues or if it`s ok to modify firmware or not. Those who don`t want to simply shouldn`t. In my oppinion the aspect of legality or warrenty, responsibility etc belongs to another thread. I am basicly interested wether those NLD guys are ingenious engengeers or simply dilletant. @ FlyaDrone what happened to the I2 pilot who attemted to perform the NDL and why " numerous times"? The first time when I tried to flash the DJI firmware by the aid of NDL firmware manager this undertaking completely failed when I ran into a loop and I was happy getting back to the original firmware safe and sound. I was told by NLD experts there may be some bugs and the new NDL client would be out soon - all bugs fixed of course. So the new client is released and I find myself standing where I was bevore. After 19 mails in which I was beenig asked about 10 times what firmware I had NLD came to the conclusion that the flashing of the firmware failed because thier database was not updated yet. When this might be they don`t tell.
     
    #15 Kornbert, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  16. FlyaDrone

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    NLD is not yet prime time. I received very quick replies from NLD when I looked into this mod but just as you say, they admit to not yet ready. Same result as you posted from what my friend said to me when he tried, not yet ready.

    As per their website "about" Kevin Finistere initiated the research, if you perform Inet search you will be able to determine for yourself if he and presumably his colleagues have adequate experienc to pull this off. Obviously not yet, but not bricking any drones yet is a serious accomplishment to know how to get around and compliment DJI firmware w/o bricking the aircraft is a testimony to their expertise - at least in my OPINION.

    We shall see what comes of their effort, but market potential for their code is obviously a pretty huge opportunity. Esp. if they can allow for backing out of their code then sending to DJI for repair and no rejections from DJI.
     
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  17. Kornbert

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    It appears rarly comprehensible to me that a technical novelty is beeing introduced by experts who did not wait until it is fully develloped- at least previously carrying out some tests before comming out with a new website pretending..no limits dronez.. You have to consider there are not just a few bugs it doesn`t workt at all. At least what I can say for I2
     
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  18. FlyaDrone

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    Your opinion is absolutely true, but from my experience and one other that I know of these guys are quick to reply to email problems that are logged and readily admit that they have a download issue. I am pretty sure that they are insulted by not being able to support the Inspire 2 and or other platforms, at least they have their reputation on the line in a public state of exposure. Wonder if they plan to refund those who paid for their service and not getting what they paid for?

    Perhaps DJI hacked their website? That would be ironical as heck that a professional code development team with very in depth counter espionage expertise (hacking for the good guys) at least in the resume of Mr. Finistere. He actually took DJI up on their offer for hackers to try and infiltrate their system with a $30K reward for anyone who could do so. He did so in less than one evening, presented them with ample proof then their lawyers started giving him some objections at which time he figured that DJI was not sincere in their offer of a $30K reward for his efforts and withdrew is efforts.
     
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  19. Dave Pitman

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    The guy behind NLD is part of a loose group of software engineers that began to explore the DJI firmware in earnest over a year ago. This came about mainly with the introduction of the Mavic, although work had been started by a few with the Phantom 3 series. NLD is the product of a couple of the guys that try to distill a mostly command line workflow into an executable application in order to make it more regular-user friendly. All of the "modding" can be done without the use of the NLD app.

    The fact is though that most of the work (reverse engineering) is done on the Mavic and Spark models. The software guys are just in it for the fun and they don't own Inspire level models. Mostly, the I2 is just a big brother to the P4P and Mavic code base, but there are differences. Since the software guys don't actually own I2s to "play with" it is not supported nearly to the degree as the Mavic and Spark and to some degree, the P4P.

    I am not connected with, nor speak for NLD. I do not own a copy and have never used it. I have followed "the scene" as they like to call it and the guys are legit. That said, it seems like they should draw back from saying that NLD will work on an I2 without issue until it actually will. I would ask them for a refund if after following their instructions the process does not work for you.

    The reason there isn't a "solid" unchanging solution is that DJI is constantly trying to make access to modification more difficult. Every time they release a firmware that contains the statement that "this version cannot be rolled back from" is an attempt by DJI to stop the modifying of their firmware. The guys in "the scene" then go to work and figure out how to overcome that security feature which is followed by DJI releasing yet another firmware that cannot be rolled back....rinse and repeat.

    Sorry for the novel. This is just a brief history of NLD and non-authorized firmware parameter adjustment in general. I suspect that most won't be interested or spend the time, but all the information is in a public wiki here: start [dji.retroroms.info] Note that the tools and the wiki itself is all maintained by volunteers and so the documentation sometimes lags behind the progress of the reverse engineering.
     
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  20. giumick

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    Im selling my bird and will most likely never own another Dji unit so it doesnt bother me much but long term i think its essential to gain better access to the software and customise it how you like.

    Dji programmers make mistakes galore and have caused so many fluff ups for people its unbelievable.

    Running your own parameters and firmware ditches their forced bull updates all together and ensures consistency.

    How many times would you mod your software if it was perfect and tuned right.....None of course. How many times has Dji forced you too and made it worse off?

    Instead you all get a roll of the dice every time a new update lands.

    Ill never forget that feeling of running to catch my I1 when the gear failed after a forced update that tried to make my X5R into a undercarriage.